# Grenfell Tower fire (London) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 14, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926 "2017-06-14T05:45:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/41 "2017-06-14T13:29:21Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I didn’t realize that was a jab. The safety problems with the building are a major part of the news stories and that’s the responsibility of the governing authorities. > > I’ll say nothing more about it. If you struggle with the difference between thoughtful policy discussions and snarky political jabs, then perhaps you should stay out of breaking news threads. Any further comments shoudl be taken to PM or ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/42 "2017-06-14T13:36:41Z")
‘Limited by guarantee’, what’s this mean? Limited liability? I’m stunned that building codes in London permit a gas line in a fire escape, only one stairway to escape, fire hoses that can’t reach and no sprinklers, in such a densely habited public building! Holy crap! None of that would be permitted where I live. And any call to authorities would have them on the owners in a heartbeat if it concerns fire safety. But apparently several people had concerns and complained yet this situation went unchanged. Will anyone lose their jobs over this? Be sued? Were any laws actually broken? Or was this within current fire code requirements? Nothing I’m reading seems to address these questions. What an avaoidable tragedy, absolutely heartbreaking! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/43 "2017-06-14T13:58:15Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > It’s worth noting that in 2009 there was a similar fire in a London flatblock. The cladding was found to be the cause of the fire’s rapid spread. In the inquest, it emerged that both the contractor nor the council\* managing the building thought that the other organisation was responsible for ensuring that the cladding met the relevant building codes. One would hope that lessons had been learned from this. We will find out in due course if they had. > > \*Not the same council managing this building. I don’t disbelieve you, because that sounds like the kind of weaselling that responsible people do when they screw up - but surely responsibility for safety isn’t a thing that can be fully delegated, is it? I mean, that wouldn’t wash if it was a private landlord. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/44 "2017-06-14T14:23:46Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > ‘Limited by guarantee’, what’s this mean? Limited liability? > > I’m stunned that building codes in London permit a gas line in a fire escape, only one stairway to escape, fire hoses that can’t reach and no sprinklers, in such a densely habited public building! > > Holy crap! None of that would be permitted where I live. And any call to authorities would have them on the owners in a heartbeat if it concerns fire safety. But apparently several people had concerns and complained yet this situation went unchanged. From what I’ve been reading, the building dates to before many such safety provisions were required, and retrofitting such buildings was up to individual councils to mandate or not. Residents and housing advocates were complaining about that for some time. Those in charge often gamble on grandfathering less-safe buildings from new safety regs if otherwise they’d be on the hook for an expensive retrofit mandate and have people get displaced. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/45 "2017-06-14T14:41:53Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I don’t disbelieve you, because that sounds like the kind of weaselling that responsible people do when they screw up - but surely responsibility for safety isn’t a thing that can be fully delegated, is it? I mean, that wouldn’t wash if it was a private landlord. In the event, the council [pled guilty](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/28/southwark-council-fined-570000-over-fatal-tower-block-fire) earlier this year to four offences of the relevant fire regulations, so it turns out that the responsibility was theirs. But, amazingly, they weren’t aware of that fact - or certainly not acting like it - at the time. > [@](#): > > At Southwark crown court on Tuesday, Judge Jeffrey Pegden told Southwark council, the landlord of Lakanal House, that it must pay a £270,000 fine, plus £300,000 costs. > > The potentially unlimited fine had been reduced from £400,000 after Southwark pleaded guilty to four offences under the Regulatory Reform (Fire) Safety Order on Friday. > > Before passing sentence, Pegden said: “In this case there was a major fire at Lakanal House on 3 July 2009, involving the tragic loss of six lives – including three children. But the sentence of this court of course can never reflect such a terrible tragedy. > > “Indeed, the prosecution don’t allege that these breaches were causative of the fatalities in the fire, or indeed of the fire itself. This case is concerned with the risk existing prior to those events.” This makes grim reading now: > [@](#): > > After the sentence was handed down, Dan Daly, LFB’s assistant commissioner for fire safety, said: “The fire at Lakanal House was a particularly harrowing incident and our thoughts remain with the families and loved ones of those who died. > > “Bringing this prosecution against Southwark council has been about ensuring that lessons are learned. > > “All landlords, including large housing providers, such as councils and housing associations, have a clear responsibility under the law that their premises meet all fire safety requirements and are effectively maintained to provide protection in the event of a fire and keep their residents safe. > > “We want them to take the opportunity provided by this court case to remind themselves of exactly what their fire safety responsibilities are under the law and to ensure that everyone in their premises is safe from the risk of fire. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/46 "2017-06-14T15:02:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The people who run it have apparently been accused of safety violations for some time, complete with predictions of a catastrophic fire like this. Apparent there was no alarm system, no working sprinklers, highly flammable cladding, and only one stairway (which had a gas line running along it). According to Al Jazeera, this was predicted a year ago: > [@](#): > > “It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders,” members of the Grenfell Action Group said in a blog dated November 2016. > > The group has since posted a new entry on its blog, saying “all our warnings fell on deaf ears”. > > “We predicted that a catastrophe like this was inevitable and just a matter of time.” > > No KCTMO official was available for comment > **[12 dead in west London tower block fire](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/6/14/huge-fire-engulfs-tower-block-in-west-london)** > > At least 12 dead and at least 68 people taken to hospital after fire engulfs the 24-floor building. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/47 "2017-06-14T15:18:40Z")
I’m can’t see how, not having sufficiently long hoses, running a gas line up a fire escape, or no smoke detectors can be explained by grandfathering, to be honest. And if fire hazards _are_ grandfathered in, why then let them clad in wood? We have old, expensive to retrofit buildings here too. But if it’s for public use, housing, schools, bars, public venues, etc, it’s still got to meet the minimum fire code standard. And building estate owners don’t get to decide the fire code. I’m mean this is kinda feels like third world stuff, to be happening in London! ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/48 "2017-06-14T15:20:26Z")
[From The Guardian: > [@](#): > > Donna Harrington lived in a flat on the 16th floor until 13 years ago, and was worried about her former next door neighbours, Pilly and Nicky, who had not been heard from. > Harrington said there had been a fire at the block 20 years ago. > > "I woke up one night to the smell of smoke. It was mayhem. There were no alarms, and I couldn’t see my hands in front of my face. They told us to stay in the flats, but my instinct told me to go. If you wait, you’re dead. > > Now there’s been a proper inferno. I feel disgusted. This has been going on for years." > [@](#): > > A former Tory housing minister warned MPs against beefing up fire safety regulations, because it could discourage house building, the Mirror reports. > > It says that five years after the coroner’s report into the 2009 blaze in Camberwell called for developers refurbishing high-rise blocks to be encouraged to install sprinkler systems, Brandon Lewis told MPs: > > "We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the government, to market fire sprinkler systems effectively and to encourage their wider installation … > > The cost of fitting a fire sprinkler system may affect house building—something we want to encourage— so we must wait to see what impact that regulation has." > > Lewis is quoted as having previously said that sprinklers are “ an effective way of controlling fires and of protecting lives and property”. ]([Met confirms 17 dead with further fatalities expected from Grenfell blaze – as it happened | Grenfell Tower fire | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/14/grenfell-tower-major-fire-london-apartment-block-white-city-latimer-road))Yeah, fuck that guy. Hey, Mr. Lewis: fuck you! See the impact your regulation has? Asshole. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/49 "2017-06-14T15:21:34Z")
[Theresa May’s chief of staff ‘sat on’ report warning high-rise blocks like Grenfell Tower were vulnerable to fire](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-mays-chief-staff-sat-10620357.amp) > [@](#): > > A former Chief Fire Officer and secretary of a parliamentary group on fire safety today revealed successive ministers had had damning evidence on their desks since 2013 and nothing had happened. I’d guess there will be a lot of safety issues looked at over the next few weeks. Won’t help the poor bastards here though. Fires are going to happen. Fridges, washer dryers etc. can go wrong but the fire shouldn’t spread so wide so fast. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/50 "2017-06-14T15:21:47Z")
On the live update page there’s a audio clip of a Labour MP explaining sprinklers are expensive. Use your page search for Harman > **[London fire: Latest updates as Grenfell Tower fire recovery continues - BBC News](https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-england-london-40239008)** > > Recovery efforts at Grenfell Tower in West London resume; 58 people are dead or presumed dead. I’m absolutely stunned that a basic fire safety system is optional in England. Cost doesn’t matter. You put in the fire safety systems or the building doesn’t pass inspection and it doesn’t get a occupancy permit. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/51 "2017-06-14T15:51:48Z")
Is the fire completely out or is the building still smoking/hot? Has there been a complete flat by flat check for any more fatalities? ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/52 "2017-06-14T15:55:03Z")
This day sucks. I woke up to this. Then I heard about the shooting at GOP baseball practice. Then I read about mudslides killing 140 in Bangladesh. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/53 "2017-06-14T16:26:18Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Is the fire completely out or is the building still smoking/hot? Has there been a complete flat by flat check for any more fatalities? The building is still on fire. They are working on extinguishing the last of the blaze and an inspection of the building has begun to determine whether or not it is still structurally sound before they start working their way thru the floors. ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/54 "2017-06-14T16:39:28Z")
What an utterly horrifying task that will be for the emergency services. Thoughts go out to them, as well as to the victims and their families and friends. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/55 "2017-06-14T17:05:25Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Cost doesn’t matter. You put in the fire safety systems or the building doesn’t pass inspection and it doesn’t get a occupancy permit. But that is contingent on the regulations actually requiring them, isn’t it? In the end, every regulator deciding on whether to impose a mandate and every builder/owner/operator deciding on whether to adopt a nonmandated safety measure, is making a judgment on what cost matters. Sometimes they choose extremely unwisely. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/56 "2017-06-14T17:23:57Z")
12 now confirmed dead. Engineers say the building is structurally sound. ETA: The links I provided in the OP are all being updated continuously. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/57 "2017-06-14T17:54:51Z")
Does anyone here remember **danceswithcats**? He was a housing inspector, general contractor, and volunteer firefighter. He testified numerous times to the state legislature about the absolute need to make sprinkler installation mandatory in new housing. At least one representative said that doing so would make houses too expensive to build, or for consumers to buy, and that the odds were one in (something or other) that it would be necessary and given the odds and expense, it shouldn’t be mandatory. To which another legislator remarked that this was fine, but what if your house was the one? The house I bought 10 years ago has a sprinkler system, mandated by the local township in all new construction. One of the major reasons I bought this house rather than another one I had my eye on was because it _had_ the sprinkler system. I don’t want to be the one, either. ---
**Author:** ![DeepLiquid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deepliquid/32/14893_2.png) [@DeepLiquid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeepLiquid)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/58 "2017-06-14T18:37:20Z")
> [@RobDog](#): > > What an utterly horrifying task that will be for the emergency services. Thoughts go out to them, as well as to the victims and their families and friends. It is, it sucks, and the sights/sounds/smells stay with you forever. Thankfully the nightmares do not. ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/59 "2017-06-14T18:58:19Z")
> [@DeepLiquid](#): > > It is, it sucks, and the sights/sounds/smells stay with you forever. Thankfully the nightmares do not. ☹ I don’t know what to say, except that I can’t think of a group of people who are more universally admired, appreciated and respected than the emergency services. Thank you for being there. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/60 "2017-06-14T19:22:07Z")
From The Guardian: > [@](#): > > Robert Black, the chief executive of Kensington and Chelsea tenant management organisation (TMO), which manages Grenfell Tower, has said he is devastated by observations that the cladding on the tower may have added to the speed and intensity at which the fire spread. > > He told ITV News London: > > "We had no expectation this would happen, we are absolutely devastated by it. And we are trying to work out – now at this stage I can listen to what people say but I don’t have any information and therefore it’s really difficult for me to comment. > > We will be working with the fire brigade and the police and as you can imagine their ongoing investigation isn’t even finished yet." > > Asked whether it was the TMO’s responsibility to keep people safe he responded: “Absolutely”. He added: > > “It’s a huge responsibility [to keep people safe] which we take seriously – what I have to work out now, along with the investigation, and find out what happened - is everything we have done is in line with the building controls laid down.” No expectation? 😕:mad: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=4)