# Grenfell Tower fire (London) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 14, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926 "2017-06-14T05:45:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/101 "2017-06-15T03:11:44Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Could be due to the time of day. This happened in the middle of the night. Or it could be due to the immediately obvious serious nature of the incident (they’d have no qualms about damaging vehicles). > > Or - which I think most likely - that particular concern might have been addressed. The block may well have had severely reduced access for emergency vehicles during the presumably long refurb. I’ve seen that happen. “Temporary” but severe access problems lasting for months. If that’s the case then it obviously didn’t cause problems with this fire, but it does tell you something about London councils and planning regulations when it comes to safety. The traffic congestion during renovations makes sense. It didn’t occur to me. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/102 "2017-06-15T03:21:15Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I’ve never heard of a dedicated water bomber. I have heard suggestions that the fire brigade should send in helicopters. 5o quote someone from another board: > > Lots of reasons for not firefighting tall buildings from aircraft. Visibility, strong down and up drafts, targeting seat of fire, structural damage from tons of water suddenly hitting the building, risk of knocking people off the building or injuring them in the process, fanning of flames, overall rate of delivery of water. > > Perhaps if it was a condemned building with no possible survivors (lots of people on the roof, almost definitely dead but you never know) in an uninhabited area it would make sense, but not here. With that smoke plume I doubt any aerial vehicle could get close enough to not risk shooting tons of water down on neighbouring structures while also killing the pilots. > > ISTM that the fire brigade did the best they possibly could. And that includes the policy of telling residents to stay put - in a normal situation, that would be the best thing to do, especially in a building with one stairwell, because how else are the firefighters supposed to get in? > > This just was not a normal situation and we don’t know why yet. > > When I was a kid I lived in a block of flats, not a tower block but more like the Camberwell one that people died in in 2009. On my block a downstairs neighbour fell asleep smoking and her entire flat was a charred hole, but it didn’t spread (my neighbour died). That block was built in the sixties and really should have been less fire-safe than this one, which was built in the 70s after stricter legislation came into place due to a different fire. This fire should not have spread like that. It’s bizarre that it did. California uses water bombers but only to fight wildfires. I doubt anyone would use one in an urban environment because water is impossible to control and you might kill people. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/103 "2017-06-15T03:43:01Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > California uses water bombers but only to fight wildfires. I doubt anyone would use one in an urban environment because water is impossible to control and you might kill people. Among other things, it could be forceful enough to knock a firefighter off a ladder. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/104 "2017-06-15T06:05:37Z")
The Guardian reports that as of 10pm PST there were still pockets of fire in the building. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/105 "2017-06-15T06:57:39Z")
I think this tragic event has probably exposed the tip of an iceberg of safety issues in high rise accommodation - since around the turn of the century, there’s been a trend for making over the hideous concrete tower blocks of the 50s and 60s by cladding them inside and out - the stained concrete exterior gets a shiny metallic-looking skin, and the grimy stairwells and halls get an interior cladding of some easy-to-clean material such as melamine-faced chipboard - this interior cladding/panelling allows services such as pipes to be concealed and protected from damage. There are a lot of council-owned buildings that have been given this makeover treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/106 "2017-06-15T07:39:41Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I think this tragic event has probably exposed the tip of an iceberg of safety issues in high rise accommodation - since around the turn of the century, there’s been a trend for making over the hideous concrete tower blocks of the 50s and 60s by cladding them inside and out - the stained concrete exterior gets a shiny metallic-looking skin, and the grimy stairwells and halls get an interior cladding of some easy-to-clean material such as melamine-faced chipboard - this interior cladding/panelling allows services such as pipes to be concealed and protected from damage. > > There are a lot of council-owned buildings that have been given this makeover treatment. Following the Melbourne fire (mentioned above) there was some talk that they were going to have to test all of the recently clad tower buildings. I presume that is ongoing. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/107 "2017-06-15T07:55:25Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > . . > [@](#): > > London Fire Commissioner Dany Cotton told reporters.“In my 29 years of being a firefighter, I have never ever seen anything of this scale.” > . And probably never really talked with anybody who had. 2017-29 = 1988. In the 80’s, London Fire was realizing that all the senior staff who had worked with big fires in the Blitz (WWII), and there wouldn’t be anybody left with that kind of experience. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/108 "2017-06-15T08:00:05Z")
> [@lilihob](#): > > I am a born and bred Grover, (ladbroke grove), and I’ve been in that block. > They spent ten million on that block last year, Palm trees and pretty cladding, new kitchens. > They also fitted gas pipes up the main stairwell! > My mum still lives around the corner, she saw the fire climbing up that cladding. > Our friend lives on one of the lower floors, the alarm did not go off. > She’s safe, at a friend’s house… Distressing for your Mum, I should think. I’m glad your friend is safe. Having gas at all is something that I thought was unusual in high-rise blocks. Having only one stairwell is common, though, and perhaps not a great idea. Safety should come before “palm trees and pretty cladding”. No doubt “lessons will be learned” _etc_. What a horrible thing to happen, and largely avoidable too. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/109 "2017-06-15T10:14:58Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > Distressing for your Mum, I should think. I’m glad your friend is safe. > > Having gas at all is something that I thought was unusual in high-rise blocks. Having only one stairwell is common, though, and perhaps not a great idea. Safety should come before “palm trees and pretty cladding”. No doubt “lessons will be learned” _etc_. > What a horrible thing to happen, and largely avoidable too. ☹ Might have been for the new communal heating system. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/110 "2017-06-15T10:44:46Z")
The future is in good hands with people like [this young man](http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/40286160/a-level-student-helps-grenfell-tower-residents-all-night---then-sits-exam). ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/111 "2017-06-15T12:48:29Z")
I dread to think what will be found inside the building once they conduct a full search. Rumour has it that the current death toll (17) is pretty much just people who fell or jumped from the tower. Most of the victims will be inside. It’s not been a good month in London so far. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/112 "2017-06-15T13:04:04Z")
It is impossible to read the descriptions of the events and think 17 is anywhere near what will soon be found. It has to be said again, as it has been and will be many times more; this is something that absolutely should not be able to happen. Apartment buildings are supposed to be designed to prevent this exact thing from being at all possible. A number of years ago I live in an apartment building where one unit was completely destroyed by fire - every single thing in the apartment was charred. A guy living there had to escape by climbing from his balcony down to the next. Huge flames were shooting out the windows; it was really quite incredible. I witnessed the entire thing from less than a hundred meters away, since I was standing out in the parking lot with all the other residents, having been awoken by our very loud fire alarm. **There was not so much as a scorch mark in any other unit in the building.** Some smoke grossness, of course, but the fire never made it out of the apartment it started in. So it’s hardly a difficult thing to do. Someone must pay for this. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/113 "2017-06-15T14:09:44Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > I dread to think what will be found inside the building once they conduct a full search. Rumour has it that the current death toll (17) is pretty much just people who fell or jumped from the tower. Most of the victims will be inside. > > It’s not been a good month in London so far. Somebody pointed out to me that the council only putting 44 families in hotels may be because they’re all that’s left. I really hope they’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/114 "2017-06-15T14:18:35Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Would water bombers have helped ?, don’t know if the UK maintains any aircraft dedicated to that use. But with the fire climbing up that side of the building, makes me wonder if a water strike would have smothered it. A LOT of people on teh ground would’ve been hammered down by the falling water. People would’ve been swept away. Much of teh falling water would’ve been off-target. Water bombers are area-affect tools, and are for wilderness environments, not urban environments. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/115 "2017-06-15T14:23:31Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > Having gas at all is something that I thought was unusual in high-rise blocks. Having only one stairwell is common, though, and perhaps not a great idea. I paraphrase again from my friend who [knows this shit](https://twitter.com/johnb78/status/875349794503274496): The important point about the stairwell is that it’s explicitly designed as a fire stair. That is, it’s isolated from the fire (see RickJay’s story about the fire being contained in one unit for how straightforward this is to achieve) and well-ventilated so as to disperse any smoke. The role of this stairwell is not primarily evacuation. It’s to allow the fire fighters access to the fire. Go up the fire-free, smoke-free staircase to the floor where the fire is, enter, fight the fire. If necessary, go up to the next floor and repeat. This is a proven safe and effective method of fighting fires in tower blocks and eliminates the need for super-high ladders etc. Or to put it another way, British fire services don’t have super-high ladders etc. because they have the fire stair system gives them a whole stairway to get to the fire in. The system works, but it hinges on the fire stair being isolated, ventilated and safe. So it absolutely won’t work if some clown puts a fucking uninsulated gas pipe up the middle of the fire stair, will it? In the days when fire fighters had the power to say that a building wasn’t safe and force landlords to fix it, this would never have happened. But we live in an age of “self-certification” which means the fire service, at best, get a look at the plans and can write a letter about them. They don’t get to inspect the final building (which of course will deviate from the plans even if everyone is honest and competent) and they don’t get to coerce people to fix dangerous fuck-ups. Apparently no-one can. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/116 "2017-06-15T14:23:35Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I’ve never heard of a dedicated water bomber. I have heard suggestions that the fire brigade should send in helicopters. 5o quote someone from another board: For your general information: [CL 415](https://youtu.be/cHuoXD_VmBs) ---
**Author:** ![lilihob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a9adbd/32.png) [@lilihob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilihob)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/117 "2017-06-15T14:32:30Z")
May did a secret ninja ten minute visit today. Only spoke to the emergency services, then left. Corbyn did a full visit, hugging the residents, promising that he’d push for an investigation, went down very well. I think that May was probably wise to keep her head down, it would have got ugly. There’s a lot of righteous anger. On the other hand, it makes her look like a coward. This story is not going to go away quietly, the Tories look like they don’t care about poor people, we knew this already, but this is really rubbing it in. They sat on the safety report for money reasons, that’s the narrative,and the daily fail has turned against the Conservatives on this issue. That paper bleeds blue, if it is selling that her government failed, she has no press friends left. The councils will be forced to step up now, the emergency fire safety checks have already started, it can’t sweep it under like Lakanal house, too many have died this time. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/118 "2017-06-15T14:39:43Z")
tbh, I’m getting angrier as time passes. David Lammey was right on it this morning on Today when he said K & C are the richest borough in the country and they’re renting third world death traps. The next time I hear some Tory cunt talking about ‘red tape’ it will be a struggle not to lamp him. Full Public Inquiry is right. At least that much is right. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/119 "2017-06-15T14:43:13Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It is impossible to read the descriptions of the events and think 17 is anywhere near what will soon be found. It’ll be three figures. A lot of people didn’t leave their flats, a lot didn’t make it down the stairs - climbing over bodies, etc. I assume the first six were jumpers. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/120 "2017-06-15T14:46:08Z")
How can the stupid cladding just catch fire like that - the whole point of the fixed gap between the wall and the cladding is the cladding won’t ever catch fire. If it ever did, of course it’d be a funnel of fire chasing up the outside wall. Jesus fucking wept. Even the fire service people are saying they haven’t seen this in nearly 30 years of service. It’s corporate manslaughter all day long. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=7)