# Grenfell Tower fire (London) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 14, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926 "2017-06-14T05:45:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/121 "2017-06-15T14:53:39Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > How can the stupid cladding just catch fire like that - the whole point of the fixed gap between the wall and the cladding is the cladding won’t ever catch fire. If it ever did, of course it’d be a funnel of fire chasing up the outside wall. Look up-thread. In the Melbourne fire, it was found that the cladding was made by a Chinese company with non-compliant poly cores. They _claimed_ it was compliant, but there was no check or balance to call them on their bullshit. The contractor, faced with a chioce of materials, chose the cheapest cladding making code-compliant claims. That covered the building in fuel. Because mineral fibre cores and poly cores are very hard to tell apart without testing, there was no cue to the building inspectors. So - Contractor and building inspectors acted in good faith, and still set up a fire trap destined to kill. I think it will come out that this is a similar case. There needs to be certification testing of any material making code compliance claims. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/122 "2017-06-15T15:00:02Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > tbh, I’m getting angrier as time passes. David Lammey was right on it this morning on Today when he said K & C are the richest borough in the country and they’re renting third world death traps. > > The next time I hear some Tory cunt talking about ‘red tape’ it will be a struggle not to lamp him. > > Full Public Inquiry is right. At least that much is right. Yeah. I can barely bring myself to think about what it must have been like for the people inside the flats. As the number of confirmed fatalities grows that will become clearer. Couple that with: [ul] [li]a clear paper trail of residents seeing these problems in advance and begging for them to be fixed, [/li][li]a “tenants management organisation” that ignored them utterly and appears to have been a catspaw of the council, [/li][li]a council that has clearly failed in its duties to residents, [/li][li]the opportunities to learn lessons from previous fires that were wilfully missed, [/li][li]the general culture of abandoning known sensible regulation in favour of freeing up “the market”, and [/li][li]the effects of the austerity ideology in limiting what remaining fire safety measures were available (i.e. inspections, fitting sprinkler systems)[/li][/ul] …and you’re left with over 100 dead people who died because they simply didn’t matter to the people in power. A disgrace. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/123 "2017-06-15T15:04:00Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > …and you’re left with over 100 dead people who died because they simply didn’t matter to the people in power. A disgrace. Not knowing anything about UK law, is there any chance that the council will be helpd personally, criminally liable? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/124 "2017-06-15T15:09:39Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > Not knowing anything about UK law, is there any chance that the council will be helpd personally, criminally liable? I don’t know much about UK law (strictly English and Welsh law in this case) but there is, as UTJ said, [a corporate manslaughter act](http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/19/section/1). > [@](#): > > An organisation to which this section applies is guilty of an offence if the way in which its activities are managed or organised— > (a)causes a person’s death, and > (b)amounts to a gross breach of a relevant duty of care owed by the organisation to the deceased. > The organisations to which this section applies are— > (a)a corporation; > (b)a department or other body listed in Schedule 1; > (c)a police force; > (d)a partnership, or a trade union or employers’ association, that is an employer. > (3)An organisation is guilty of an offence under this section only if the way in which its activities are managed or organised by its senior management is a substantial element in the breach referred to in subsection (1). > (4)For the purposes of this Act— > (a)“relevant duty of care” has the meaning given by section 2, read with sections 3 to 7; > (b)a breach of a duty of care by an organisation is a “gross” breach if the conduct alleged to amount to a breach of that duty falls far below what can reasonably be expected of the organisation in the circumstances; > (c)“senior management”, in relation to an organisation, means the persons who play significant roles in— > (i)the making of decisions about how the whole or a substantial part of its activities are to be managed or organised, or > (ii)the actual managing or organising of the whole or a substantial part of those activities. > (5)The offence under this section is called— > (a)corporate manslaughter, in so far as it is an offence under the law of England and Wales or Northern Ireland; > (b)corporate homicide, in so far as it is an offence under the law of Scotland. > (6)An organisation that is guilty of corporate manslaughter or corporate homicide is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine. > (7)The offence of corporate homicide is indictable only in the High Court of Justiciary. I don’t think we have enough specific info about who made what decisions to even guess whether this will apply to anyone yet, and I wouldn’t have the legal expertise to assess that info even if I had it. But it is at least possible that someone will be held criminally liable. There will be a strong public demand for such, I imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/125 "2017-06-15T15:23:56Z")
[Read this and try not to scream](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=828621) > [@](#): > > In 2010, I spent six months working on a BBC investigation into concerns about fire safety in refurbished high rises. Our findings were conclusive. Fire chiefs and safety experts all agreed that the vogue for cladding old concrete blocks with plastic fascia, removing asbestos and replacing steel window frames with ones made of UPvC cancelled out all the fire prevention measures that had been built into the blocks. > … > Billions of pounds of public funds were handed out to contractors to carry out the upgrades – £820 million in London alone. In almost all cases, the drab concrete was wrapped in brightly coloured plastic. It may look far nicer, but the material used in most cases is also highly flammable, while the tiny space between the façade and the concrete acts as a chimney in the event of a fire, sucking the flames up the building in seconds. Grenfell Tower had been clad in those plastic fascia during its revamp last year – it is looking increasingly like that that is the reason why the fire engulfed it within fifteen minutes. > > These safety flaws were not a secret. The government knew about them. Local authorities knew. Contractors knew – the tip-off that sparked our investigation came from someone working on a tower block refurb in the West Midlands. A previous blaze in 2009 that killed six people in the Lakanal House block in Camberwell, southeast London, spread because fire regulations had been breached. It now turns out that the government had produced and then sat on a report recommending that building regulations be changed in the wake of that fire. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/126 "2017-06-15T15:31:17Z")
Stanislaus: You have the wrong URL–your URL simply points to this thread. There was a lot of information about the dangers of this type cladding by 2015 when this renovation was done: [https://sourceable.net/risk-of-cladding-fire-in-skyscrapers-grows/](https://sourceable.net/risk-of-cladding-fire-in-skyscrapers-grows/) ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/127 "2017-06-15T15:44:41Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Stanislaus: You have the wrong URL–your URL simply points to this thread. > > There was a lot of information about the dangers of this type cladding by 2015 when this renovation was done: > [Risk of Cladding Fire in Skyscrapers Grows – Architecture . Construction . Engineering . Property](https://sourceable.net/risk-of-cladding-fire-in-skyscrapers-grows/) Bugger. URL here: [https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/06/grenfell-tower-blaze-disaster-waiting-happen/](https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/06/grenfell-tower-blaze-disaster-waiting-happen/) Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/128 "2017-06-15T16:04:33Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > I dread to think what will be found inside the building once they conduct a full search. Rumour has it that the current death toll (17) is pretty much just people who fell or jumped from the tower. Most of the victims will be inside. > > It’s not been a good month in London so far. In the [hi rise fire](https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/tr-039.pdf) (pdf link to FEMA analysis report) I [attended](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20276710&postcount=3) back in 1989 almost all the deaths were from smoke inhalation on the higher floors. And that was in a fire where the flames were confined to the two lower floors. It killed 16 and the flames never reached anywhere close to most of those who died. And this was in a building of only 10 floors which had two fire stairways. Extrapolating those ideas to this Grenfell Tower fire and I fear a three figure death toll. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/129 "2017-06-15T16:08:50Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > But it is at least possible that someone will be held criminally liable. There will be a strong public demand for such, I imagine. Good to know that there is at least a possiblity of accountability. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/130 "2017-06-15T16:34:00Z")
And there are over a dozen other blocks in London alone that have been clad by the same company using the same materials. If I lived in one of those I would be demanding that the cladding be ripped off right now. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/131 "2017-06-15T17:36:51Z")
Screw the cladding and instead demand your fire code laws and enforcement get brought up to first world standards! ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/132 "2017-06-15T17:42:46Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I heard that too. :eek: :smack: It reminded me of this story. > > [Our Lady of the Angels School fire - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_the_Angels_School_fire) > > The children were told to stay where they were and pray for the firemen to arrive, even if they were not in imminent danger. :rolleyes: This cost a lot of them their lives, and led to the serious injuries of many, many more. i’ve read quite a bit about the ola fire. ola had one central stair as well. once the smoke was in the hallway it was cut off, esp. for the classrooms on the second floor. the fire went right to the space between the ceiling and the roof. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/133 "2017-06-15T17:49:21Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > In the days when fire fighters had the power to say that a building wasn’t safe and force landlords to fix it, this would never have happened. But we live in an age of “self-certification” which means the fire service, at best, get a look at the plans and can write a letter about them. They don’t get to inspect the final building (which of course will deviate from the plans even if everyone is honest and competent) and they don’t get to coerce people to fix dangerous fuck-ups. Apparently no-one can. Indeed, there was a fire here in Ontario that killed three young people a few years ago that was in part due to the house they were in not even being close to code. The landlord had been told to fix it, but the fire department simply took his word for it that he had. Of course he had not, so those kids died. Every time something like this happens, it’s because the building was preposterously unsafe, and then there’a a flurry of talk about how we have to change things, but what you invariably find is that **the existing rules were already more than enough.** It’s just that for whatever reason they were not followed. The very famous Our Lady of the Angels fire killed 94 people because the building was grandfathered and not up to code. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/134 "2017-06-15T18:23:20Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > And there are over a dozen other blocks in London alone that have been clad by the same company using the same materials. If I lived in one of those I would be demanding that the cladding be ripped off right now. More than one commentator has been arguing that without a full Public Inquiry, the Gov was looking at serious civil disobedience on the streets. In other words, the PM had no choice then only question is whether the Inquiry is enough. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/135 "2017-06-15T18:41:27Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > In other words, the PM had no choice then only question is whether the Inquiry is enough. No inquiry is enough, if they sit on it again. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/136 "2017-06-16T01:13:18Z")
I’m hearing continuing reports of people looking for people, checking all the hospitals and all the refuge centres. For a very long time that was a job undertaken by the Salvation Army. They had the experience and the infrastructure. Is that all gone now? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/137 "2017-06-16T04:15:03Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I’m hearing continuing reports of people looking for people, checking all the hospitals and all the refuge centres. > > For a very long time that was a job undertaken by the Salvation Army. They had the experience and the infrastructure. Is that all gone now? …being as delicate as possible: but it is very likely that entire families no longer exist. And I mean that literally. If, as suspected, there are over a hundred people unaccounted for, then what are people supposed to do, but continually check the hospitals and the refuge centres? Could you just sit at home, waiting for the phone to ring, if it were your family that were missing? As Lily Allen put it [today](http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/current-affairs/lily-allen-calls-for-updated-london-fire-death-toll-in-emotional-tv-interview/news-story/362f4d813d327c92f63eb818744259c7): ““I appreciate that, but these are families. When you have to identify a body, you have to report it to the next of kin. There are no next of kin.” I’m sure that the Salvation Army are doing all that they can. As are the Red Cross, the churches, the mosques, and all the other volunteer organizations. But this is an extraordinary situation. Nobody has experience in this. If anyone should be stepping up: it is the government organizations, and not the voluntary ones. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/138 "2017-06-16T05:43:37Z")
Don’t let reality get in the way of media taking advantage of grief to develop its narratives. There were dozens of people in hospital, unconscious and unidentified. In their night clothes. ---
**Author:** ![JacobSwan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@JacobSwan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JacobSwan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/139 "2017-06-16T06:34:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …being as delicate as possible: but it is very likely that entire families no longer exist. And I mean that literally. If, as suspected, there are over a hundred people unaccounted for, then what are people supposed to do, but continually check the hospitals and the refuge centres? Could you just sit at home, waiting for the phone to ring, if it were your family that were missing? As Lily Allen put it [today](http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/current-affairs/lily-allen-calls-for-updated-london-fire-death-toll-in-emotional-tv-interview/news-story/362f4d813d327c92f63eb818744259c7): > > ““I appreciate that, but these are families. When you have to identify a body, you have to report it to the next of kin. There are no next of kin.” > > I’m sure that the Salvation Army are doing all that they can. As are the Red Cross, the churches, the mosques, and all the other volunteer organizations. But this is an extraordinary situation. Nobody has experience in this. If anyone should be stepping up: it is the government organizations, and not the voluntary ones. After the King’s Cross fire it took 16 years to identify the last body. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/140 "2017-06-16T08:25:05Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Don’t let reality get in the way of media taking advantage of grief to develop its narratives. I think this might be one situation where I absolutely _want_ the media to go to town on the story. This is something that needs to create a massive cloud of deep, lasting shame for all of the responsible individuals, organisations and policymakers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=8)