# Grenfell Tower fire (London) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 14, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926 "2017-06-14T05:45:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/141 "2017-06-16T09:02:29Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Screw the cladding and instead demand your fire code laws and enforcement get brought up to first world standards! Fire codes are not the problem. Concrete tower blocks contain fire in an individual apartment extremely well, as has been repeatedly demonstrated over the past 50 years or so. It’s only after the architectural geniuses decided to wrap them in flammable plastic panels that bypass the firebreaks and compartmentalisation _built into the structure_ that we see horror like this. Sprinklers would have done precisely fuck all in this case. A second stairwell would have done about as much. The building was safe until they covered it with what are effectively firelighters. As I type, I can see several tower blocks out of my window covered with exactly the same materials. They need to come off. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/142 "2017-06-16T10:28:34Z")
The real problem is that many of the shitty concrete towers of the 50s should just have been torn down and replaced with something modern, which would have been better all round. Before the makeover, these buildings were often barely habitable - water running down the walls, fungus growing out of the plaster, wind whistling through the gaps in the window frames, plus all of the knock-on effects that arise when people live in a horrible place. If you hate where you live, why _not_ piss in the stairwell? How could it be worse? Cladding them was a least-cost measure that provided these shitty, leaky buildings an extra layer of weather resistance, and made them objectively (and subjectively) better places to live in, as long as they don’t catch fire and kill you. None of that is an excuse of course. it’s perfectly possible to makeover an old building using materials that would actually _improve_ the fire safety, or do the better thing, which is: bite the bullet - tear down, rebuild better. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/143 "2017-06-16T10:30:35Z")
The BBC are reporting that 76 people are missing. That usually just means they haven’t found the bodies. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/144 "2017-06-16T10:48:19Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > The BBC are reporting that 76 people are missing. That usually just means they haven’t found the bodies. ☹ I guess that must be based on things like records of who was registered living there (not sure that will include minors). Frankly, that still seems like a low number given the size of the building and the way it went up. Firefighters only got as far as the 12th floor (halfway up). There were 6 flats per floor - so If there was only one person per residence in the remaining 12 floors, that would be 72 people. I hope the death toll turns out to be lower than everyone thought, but I fear it will be higher. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/145 "2017-06-16T11:48:31Z")
Police confirmed 30 deaths. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/146 "2017-06-16T12:36:49Z")
It’s going to be difficult to put any real estimate on the numbers. People will have had lodgers (possibly to help with bedroom tax), friends visiting, possibly using their flats as air b&bs given the location, and the private flats may well have crammed in many times the number of people supposed to be living there. Although it’s likely that everyone who survived has reported in, that doesn’t help much. I mean they won’t just be able to say “right, here’s the number of tenants, and here’s the number of survivors, so what’s left must be the fatalities.” And given the length of time the fire went on and the young age of some of the missing it might well be hard to even find their bodies. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/147 "2017-06-16T12:42:57Z")
[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/sun-journalist-grenfell-tower-victim-hospital?CMP=share\_btn\_tw](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/sun-journalist-grenfell-tower-victim-hospital?CMP=share_btn_tw) A Sun journalist allegedly impersonated a relative to try and gain access to a survivor at a hospital. The Sun deny it, which is good evidence that it happened. ---
**Author:** ![MrFloppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@MrFloppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFloppy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/148 "2017-06-16T13:36:47Z")
Does anyone know how building inspections during and after construction, are performed in the UK Who inspects? The local borough? A private entity? The city? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/149 "2017-06-16T13:38:57Z")
> [@MrFloppy](#): > > Does anyone know how building inspections during and after construction, are performed in the UK > > Who inspects? The local borough? A private entity? The city? The landlord. Yes, really. Self-certification. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/150 "2017-06-16T13:43:01Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > Sprinklers would have done precisely fuck all in this case. Disagree. Yes, the exterior would’ve still gone up like a roman candle… _if_ the sprinklers didn’t suppress the oringal fire in the first place. Also; sprinklers would’ve limited/uinhibited the fires’s abiilty to penetrate back into teh building at higher levels. Additional benefit, sprinklers may suppress smoke, giving people more time to escape. In general: [ul] [li]Sprinkler presence is associated with a 29% reduction in injuries per 100 reported home fires[/li][li]Sprinkler presence is associated with a 53% reduction in medical cost of injuries per 100 reported home fires; and[/li][li]Sprinkler presence is associated with a 41% reduction in total cost of injuries per 100 reported home fires.[/li][/ul] (NFPA) I think it fair to suggest that a sprinkler system wouldn’t have hurt, and may very well have helped, possibly even preventing the catastrophy entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/151 "2017-06-16T13:51:50Z")
[There’s not going to be any good news, and closure is going to be difficult: > [@](#): > > As firefighters keep searching the charred ruins of the Grenfell Tower public housing complex with sniffer dogs and drones, Metropolitan Police commander Stuart Cundy said there was “a risk that, sadly, we may not be able to identify everybody.” > > Experts said the intensity of Wednesday’s fire at the 24-story building will make naming victims extremely difficult, drawing comparisons to the 2001 World Trade Centre terror attacks in New York, where 40 percent of the victims were never identified. > > “When you have a fire that takes hold like that, that is literally an inferno. You get a lot of fragmentation of bodies, charring of bones and sometimes all that’s left is ash,” said Peter Vanezis, a professor of forensic medical sciences at Queen Mary University in London. > > He said the temperature of the blaze at Grenfell Tower was comparable to a cremation. > > “The longer a fire burns, the less chance you have that there will be enough DNA left to test,” Vanezis said. > [@](#): > > Another complicating factor is that much of the DNA material that would normally be used to help pinpoint victims - like toothbrushes or combs - were probably also incinerated in the blaze. > > “Even if we get some DNA, the question will be, do we have anything to compare it to?” said Denise Syndercombe Court, a forensic science expert at King’s College London. > > In those cases, Syndercombe Court said experts would need a DNA sample from other family members or need to see if there are any reference samples available elsewhere, like a hospital blood or tissue test. > > Syndercombe Court said even tiny fragments of teeth or bone could help, explaining that DNA tests can be run on as few as 10 to 20 cells. She said many identifications would probably be done via dental records, predicting that such samples would be more likely found from people who died of smoke inhalation, rather than those killed by the fire itself. > > Syndercombe Court said the testing process would likely take months, as officials scour through remains, search for things like comparison DNA and go through a lengthy verification process. ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU\_MED\_LONDON\_FIRE\_FORENSICS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2017-06-16-09-14-35](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_MED_LONDON_FIRE_FORENSICS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2017-06-16-09-14-35))This is just awful. Greed and carelessness have killed more people here than terrorists did in two recent attacks; is anyone else taking note of that? ---
**Author:** ![MrFloppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@MrFloppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFloppy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/152 "2017-06-16T13:56:08Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > The landlord. Yes, really. Self-certification. I understand that in this case, the landlord is the borough but are you saying that in UK construction the owner inspects or the local borough inspects? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/153 "2017-06-16T13:59:30Z")
The owner self-inspects, **MrFloppy**. ---
**Author:** ![MrFloppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@MrFloppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFloppy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/154 "2017-06-16T14:05:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The owner self-inspects, **MrFloppy**. I find that hard to believe. So a building like The Shard (for example) had no governmental or otherwise authoritative inspections? The owner says “yeah that’ll do” and signs off on it? So we have chartered engineers, surveyors and architects, but some bloke with a clipboard has the last say? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/155 "2017-06-16T14:13:17Z")
> [@MrFloppy](#): > > I find that hard to believe. So a building like The Shard (for example) had no governmental or otherwise authoritative inspections? The owner says “yeah that’ll do” and signs off on it? > > So we have chartered engineers, surveyors and architects, but some bloke with a clipboard has the last say? That’s correct. Check this out: [Fire safety in purpose-built blocks of flats: > [@](#): > > 1. Who should carry out the fire risk assessment? > > 38.1 There is no legal requirement for the fire risk assessment to be carried out by specialists, such as consultants. Indeed, in the case of, say, small or modern blocks of flats (eg built within the last 20 years), it can be advantageous for the landlord or other responsible person to use this guide and carry out the fire risk assessment themselves. Their consequent understanding of the fire safety design in the building will enable them to manage fire safety better on an ongoing basis. > > 38.2 In the case of taller blocks of flats (eg comprising more than a ground and three upper storeys), more specialist knowledge may be necessary to carry out a fire risk assessment, particularly if the block was designed and constructed before 1992. However, the decision as to whether to use outside specialists to carry out a fire risk assessment rests with the responsible person. > > 38.3 Regardless of who carries it out, the Responsible person will be liable to prosecution if, as a result of an inadequate fire risk assessment, people are placed at the risk of death or serious injury in case of fire. Equally, anyone carrying out the fire risk assessment for the responsible person has the same liability. Nevertheless, external services can only be advisory in nature and there will still be a need for some involvement of the responsible person in the fire risk assessment process – even if only to provide certain information and arrange access. ]([Fire Safety | Estates - UCL – University College London](http://www.ucl.ac.uk/estates/maintenance/fire/documents/purpose_built_flats.pdf)) Check this out as well: > [@](#): > > 26.6 There is no requirement under the Building Regulations for upgrading existing fire safety measures to current standards. However, existing non-compliances with the current Building Regulations must not be made any worse in the course of alterations or building works. > [@](#): > > 28.2 The FSO imposes requirements and duties on the ‘responsible person’. In the case of a block of flats, the responsible person is the person having control of the premises. This is a terrible set of laws and regulations, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![MrFloppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@MrFloppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFloppy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/156 "2017-06-16T14:19:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > That’s correct. Check this out: [Fire safety in purpose-built blocks of flats:](http://www.ucl.ac.uk/estates/maintenance/fire/documents/purpose_built_flats.pdf) > Check this out as well: > This is a terrible set of laws and regulations, IMO. Ahh, I think you’re referring to the fire assessment for existing buildings. I’m more interested in actual building inspections during and post construction: Plumbing, Electrical, Structural etc. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/157 "2017-06-16T14:26:16Z")
I’m still getting angrier by the day. The way Tories relentlessly ‘cut red tape’ in their self-interest as landlords … I just can’t bear it. If there is a march tonight to the town hall I can’t go along, but I plan to go over very early on Sunday morning. I’m very aware of ‘recreational mourning’. I’d like to be gone by the time most people are waking. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/158 "2017-06-16T14:30:29Z")
> [@MrFloppy](#): > > I find that hard to believe. So a building like The Shard (for example) had no governmental or otherwise authoritative inspections? The owner says “yeah that’ll do” and signs off on it? > > So we have chartered engineers, surveyors and architects, but some bloke with a clipboard has the last say? It is hard to believe, but it’s true. The owners here weren’t precisely the council - it was a Tenant Management Organisation. Technically that’s supposed to be mainly actual tenants but in practice the tenants on the board very ignored. It’s just a form of buck passing by the council. Local councils do have it hard at the moment. The Tories have them extra responsibilities (“to increase transparency and local power”) at the same time as slashing their budgets by 40%. Lots of other cuts (like the bedroom tax, change in council tax reduction for low earners, reductions in social care money for disabled people) have meant desperate people turning to the council for help. Oh, and the local population is increasing. Plus, remember those over 1000 long-term empty properties I mentioned? They don’t pay council tax (a local property tax intended to pay for things like bin collection, street lighting, etc) And the properties that are second homes pay less council tax too. They still expect their streets to be lit and rubbish-free to keep their investment healthy though. So if it turns out, as accused, that part of the cause of the fire was saving just £5,000 on the cladding, it won’t just be because the council are corrupt but because they’re broke. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/159 "2017-06-16T14:31:06Z")
> [@MrFloppy](#): > > Ahh, I think you’re referring to the fire assessment for existing buildings. AFAIK these laws apply to new construction as well. I’ve not yet seen anything that contradicts that. > [@MrFloppy](#): > > I’m more interested in actual building inspections during and post construction: Plumbing, Electrical, Structural etc. As this thread is about a huge fire, those specific aspects of UK building laws have not been pertinent and so have not been discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926/160 "2017-06-16T14:34:06Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > AFAIK these laws apply to new construction as well. I’ve not yet seen anything that contradicts that. That’s bloody insane. It’s a suicide pact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grenfell-tower-fire-london/788926.md?page=9)