Grenfell Tower fire (London)

[SciFiSam]

I’ve been following this all day, unable to stop myself knowing more about it. The poor fucking bastards. Apparently there are dozens of bodies on the roof. People throwing babies from the ninth floor to be caught by passers-by. It’s one of the worst things I’ve ever seen.

The Conservatives have been making enormous cuts to the emergency services, including the fire brigade. Yes, the brigade’s response time was good, but was their equipment as good as it could have been? And should they have been allowed to go in and do a proper inspection?

They didn’t, because landlords are allowed to self-certify. Yup, seriously.

They did do a recent check (Saturday, according to one tenant) but it was of things like smoke alarms in individual flats, not a full building inspection.

Oh and Boris Fucking Johnson told a London Assembly member to shut up when he brought up the cuts.

The survivors will mostly be poor, disabled or otherwise vulnerable people and the borough will not have anywhere to rehouse them because the Housing Bill passed last yer forces them to sell off their properties. They’ll get shipped out to some town hundreds of miles away, lose their jobs, family contacts, kids’ schools etc, all at a time when they’ve lost everything they own, sentimental possessions, pets, friends, everything except their lives.

All while, in their own borough, thousands of homes sit empty because they were bought by millionaires as investments only.

I’m flipping between tears and anger.

@aceplace57

The building codes for hi-rises were changed to prevent fires like this back in the 1960’s. Better fire detection alarms, automatic fire retardant systems, and escape planning.

It’s been a long time since I saw a hi-rises fire this bad. Excluding 9/11, a fire this bad in a hi-rise shouldn’t happen. There’s too much planning to prevent fires. They use treated building materials, put in sensors, water sprinklers. A lot of design and emergency planning goes into a hi-rise.

This building was recently renovated and should have the latest systems.

Something about this fire doesn’t seem right. Either the building didn’t have the correct fire systems or perhaps they were tampered with.

Retrofitting is optional so this block didn’t have any of the latest systems. It’s still VERY odd that the fire spread so fast though. It looks like unrealistic special effects, not real life.

@Snowboarder_Bo

No fire alarms unless a resident installed one. No coordination of rescue services, of which there are 100s of firefighters and EMTs. 100s homeless with no possessions. 100s more may be trapped or dead on upper floors.

This could be really really bad.

The council does install smoke alarms in each flat, and the rescue services were coordinated. I know this seems nitpicky but if we don’t check the criticisms we’re making are actually true it makes the rest of them look bogus.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@SciFiSam

The council does install smoke alarms in each flat, and the rescue services were coordinated. I know this seems nitpicky but if we don’t check the criticisms we’re making are actually true it makes the rest of them look bogus.

To be clear, that’s what I read at one of the 4 links I provided in the OP, not my own assessment or anything. I’ve looked for that passage, but all have undergone re-writes with the possible exception of The Guardian, which simply adds to their story with a note about when the addition was made.

[Flyer]

I, too, am flabbergasted that this could happen in a First-world nation.

It’s like “The Towering Inferno” come to life.

[Mangetout]

@Stanislaus

In the event, the council pled guilty earlier this year to four offences of the relevant fire regulations, so it turns out that the responsibility was theirs. But, amazingly, they weren’t aware of that fact - or certainly not acting like it - at the time.

I guess it’s the case that people actually doing the job don’t necessarily observe the policies of their own organisation - either that, or it could be the old story where the people doing the job are desperately under-resourced, run off their feet and mismanaged by people who set priorities that divert their staff away from the diligent pursuit of their jobs.

[Tranquilis]

@SciFiSam

Retrofitting is optional so this block didn’t have any of the latest systems. It’s still VERY odd that the fire spread so fast though. It looks like unrealistic special effects, not real life.

Not if the replacement cladding (last year) was poly-cored. Per numerous sites and cites on the 'webs, it is phyisically difficult to tell the difference between mineral-fibre-core and poly-core cladding, without testing. If the cladding claims to be in compliance with fire codes, there’s really no way an inspector (or contractor!) would know the difference without some form of testing. This was demonstrated in the Austrialian high-rise fire. The poly-cored stuff burns like firewood. Only faster.

So - Unscrupulous manufacturer makes bogus claims, contractor is faced with choice of inexpensive cladding that makes a claim of being code-worthy, and more expensive cladding that makes a claim of being code-worthy: Which is he going to select?

So long as no exterior fire happens (a fairly safe bet), no one knows any better. But of course, when an exterior fire does happen… Well, tragedy. :mad:

[SciFiSam]

@Snowboarder_Bo

To be clear, that’s what I read at one of the 4 links I provided in the OP, not my own assessment or anything. I’ve looked for that passage, but all have undergone re-writes with the possible exception of The Guardian, which simply adds to their story with a note about when the addition was made.

Yeah, that does make it difficult providing cites. It is law that social landlords must provide smoke alarms (I live in social housing) but I can’t remember which of the articles I read mentioned that this definitely had been done in these flats. There were either no alarms in the hallways, though, or they malfunctioned somehow, if reports are accurate.

There were no sprinklers and only one stairwell.

The accusation of emergency services not being coordinated is a bit bizarre though - the response time was good and emergency crews came from every borough, hospitals declared a major emergency (again), etc, etc.

After a similar, smaller fire in 2009 there were efforts to push through stricter legislation, but Gavin Barwell, the minister responsible for that of thing, decided not to commission a report. He was widely criticised for it at the time. Last week he lost his seat in the election and May appointed him as her special advisor, showing what fantastic judgment she has.

She didn’t bother making a statement till 8pm today (the fire was known to be fatal and unusually large early this morning) and said “If there are any lessons to be learned they will be, and action will be taken.” IF. Fucking if.

[SciFiSam]

FWIW that “look to the helpers” thing holds true here. Lots of reports of people rushing into the building to make sure people got out, neighbours carrying disabled people down, that man catching the baby. Lots of (poorer) residents offering temporary accommodation for the displaced, which isn’t just the ones from Grenfell but hundreds who’ve been evacuated from nearby buildings due to danger from falling debris and smoke. Churches, Mosques and the Gurdwara have been working together to make sure people have food and clothes that have been donated by the public. The leisure centre has been made into a refuge centre, again with donated sleeping bags and run by volunteers. It’s really impressive how much the local community has come together.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@SciFiSam

After a similar, smaller fire in 2009 there were efforts to push through stricter legislation, but Gavin Barwell, the minister responsible for that of thing, decided not to commission a report. He was widely criticised for it at the time. Last week he lost his seat in the election and May appointed him as her special advisor, showing what fantastic judgment she has.

yojimbo offered a link that informs that Mr. Barwell sat on said report which was commissioned by one of his predecessors.

@yojimbo

Theresa May’s chief of staff ‘sat on’ report warning high-rise blocks like Grenfell Tower were vulnerable to fire

Theresa May’s new chief of staff was one of a series of housing ministers who “sat on” a report warning high-rise blocks like Grenfell Tower were vulnerable to fire for four years.

A former Chief Fire Officer and secretary of a parliamentary group on fire safety today revealed successive ministers had had damning evidence on their desks since 2013 and nothing had happened.

And the Labour MP who chairs the group said ministers had “sat on” the recommendations for almost four years.

Gavin Barwell, who was housing minister until losing his seat in last week’s election, promised to review part B of the Building Regulations 2010, which relate to fire safety, but the review never materialized.

[PastTense]

@SciFiSam

Yes, the brigade’s response time was good, but was their equipment as good as it could have been?

This was a 24 floor building. While I don’t know what the situation is in the UK, the standard fire truck ladder heights in the U.S. are 75 and 100 feet. So they would have reached to less than half the height of the building.

By the time Mahad Egal and his family, including two small children, escaped from their fourth floor flat in Grenfell Tower, it was just before 1am. “We were one of the first 10 families who got out no later than 1.10am, and at this point the fire was no higher than an average tree,” he said. It seemed it was “controllable”. But then, he added, the cladding on the building caught fire.

How the Grenfell Tower disaster unfolded

Right now it is looking more and more likely that a decision to install a flammable cladding just a year or so ago is the major culprit.

[Tranquilis]

@PastTense

Right now it is looking more and more likely that a decision to install a flammable cladding just a year or so ago is the major culprit.

This gets back to my point about manufacturer claims of code-compliance. In the Oz fire, it was alleged that the manufacturer / importer of the cladding was making claims of code-worthiness that were not in fact tested or correct, but that the visible differences between the two forms of cladding were so minor that special tests would be required to tell them apart.

[Baron_Greenback]

@PastTense

This was a 24 floor building. While I don’t know what the situation is in the UK, the standard fire truck ladder heights in the U.S. are 75 and 100 feet. So they would have reached to less than half the height of the building.

That US ladder height chimes with some of the footage from London. The highest platform seemed to be a remote-controlled ladder/hose.

[ZipperJJ]

Here’s a nice article about all of the donations pouring in to the sports center where displaced people are being housed: People Have Donated All These Supplies To Just One Centre For Those Left Homeless By The Grenfell Tower Fire

[1224rattusrattus]

A senior London Fire Brigade Officer was on channel 4 news two hours ago. The question of why the fire hoses only reached the half way height (they have taller ones in America) was countered by him, he said that for hoses to reach that high you would need an exceptionally long fire truck and this wouldn’t work in the narrower streets of London.

[Tranquilis]

@1224rattusrattus

A senior London Fire Brigade Officer was on channel 4 news two hours ago. The question of why the fire hoses only reached the half way height (they have taller ones in America) was countered by him, he said that for hoses to reach that high you would need an exceptionally long fire truck and this wouldn’t work in the narrower streets of London.

Not to mention that you’d need booster pumps to to move significant amounts of firefighting water beyond a certain height.

[SciFiSam]

@PastTense

This was a 24 floor building. While I don’t know what the situation is in the UK, the standard fire truck ladder heights in the U.S. are 75 and 100 feet. So they would have reached to less than half the height of the building.
How the Grenfell Tower disaster unfolded | Grenfell Tower fire | The Guardian

Right now it is looking more and more likely that a decision to install a flammable cladding just a year or so ago is the major culprit.

But the rest of the equipment? It does need to be investigated.

Interestingly, they’re using drones to observe inside the building, because it’s not safe to enter atm. Clever. There are still pockets of fire 19 hours on.

The building is right above an underground tunnel so the line has had to be temporarily closed on that section - because of the danger of collapse, presumably? If it doesn’t collapse it’ll have to be brought down ASAP.

FWIW one thing that’s helped save lives is that it’s Ramadan so most of the Muslim residents were awake, so got out and roused the alarm with their neighbours.

The cladding does seem to be a possible culprit, or at least the way it was put on to the pre-existing surface, leaving gaps for fire to spread. It’s too early to say right now. But something strange did happen and I hope they work out what it was very quickly.

[HurricaneDitka]

@Tzigone

This day sucks. I woke up to this. Then I heard about the shooting at GOP baseball practice. Then I read about mudslides killing 140 in Bangladesh.

There was also a shooting spree in California

[Dahu]

@elbows

‘Limited by guarantee’, what’s this mean? Limited liability?

Yes, limited liability. It’s usually for companies that are governed by members rather than shareholders, such as charities. The one I work for requires the trustees to stump up £1 each in the event of bankruptcy.

[elbows]

Is there any discussion going on about standardizing or enforcement of first world like fire code minimums? I mean, none of this stuff; mandatory sprinklers, smoke detectors, fire alarms, sufficient hose lengths, number of exits/stairs, and NOT running gas lines through fire escapes, have hindered development in my country. Or many others.

How are the lives of families something worth sacrificing to save real estate developers some profit? Who’s willing to take that deal? Or defend it in parliament? Is there outrage when they do?

Even in an older structure, how is a developer given go ahead to renovate, all while claiming poverty to provide modern safety standards?

I’m gobsmacked to learn it’s this way in such a modern country/city. Everyone I know is kinda stunned too, “Gas line in the only fire route? Seriously?” Who could think that’s acceptable? Ever?

[SciFiSam]

@Tranquilis

Not to mention that you’d need booster pumps to to move significant amounts of firefighting water beyond a certain height.

Tower blocks like this often have a shaft for getting the water up, but I’m not sure if this one does or, if it does, if it was operational.

[PastTense]

@1224rattusrattus

A senior London Fire Brigade Officer was on channel 4 news two hours ago. The question of why the fire hoses only reached the half way height (they have taller ones in America) was countered by him, he said that for hoses to reach that high you would need an exceptionally long fire truck and this wouldn’t work in the narrower streets of London.

Actually the longest ladder fire truck is the Bronto Skylift which can reach 112 meters (367 feet). They are made in Europe:

F 112 HLA - Ultimate Reach 2011