# Grizzly Man (documentary); open spoilers
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [December 30, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682 "2005-12-30T04:08:01Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2006, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682/61 "2006-02-06T15:04:14Z")
> [@Trunk](#):
>
> I A man who gets shot and says, “it was not a significant bullet” is not the kind of man who “grandstands”. I thought it was an effective technique.
I think that’s a language problem. It was a pellet gun.
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### Author:  [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2006, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682/62 "2006-02-06T15:32:05Z")
> [@Waverly](#):
>
> I never said it was. I think I’m allowed an opinion as to what flows and what’s distracting, and I voiced it. Unless I missed it, there is only one segment that is ‘about’ Herzog, and that is one too many for my taste.
No one is telling you to take back your opinion. Howcome you’re allowed an opinion on the film, but I’m not allowed an opinion about your opinion?
> [@Waverly](#):
>
> Re: Herzog already having come to that conclusion: He used footage from the last tape. I would find it hard to believe that the first, last, and only time he listened to the last six minutes he was on camera.
The problem, when you start making assumptions, is you make an ass out of “u” and “mptions.”
Wait.
Any, unless he promised not to listen to the final part until he could do so in her presence; unless the “final” tape was a different tape (maybe the battery ran out on a fresh tape?); unless that scene took place earlier in the process than you assume, and he only edited in the images from the tape AFTER he’d heard the last part . . . should I go on?
> [@Waverly](#):
>
> I don’t get all this “Hertzog is the filmmaker, he can craft it any way he wants” business. Ed Wood was a filmmaker, does that make his judgment sound? If the filmmaker is right by definition, then we’d better write to Roger Ebert and tell him pack it in.
No one is saying that. You’re saying the filmmaker has to follow certain rules. We’re saying no; the filmmaker should do what seems right for the film, and then the results will be judged on their own merits–by you, me, and Ebert. On their own merits; not against a “rule book.”
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### Author:  [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2006, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682/63 "2006-02-06T15:33:46Z")
:rolleyes:
> [@lissener](#):
>
> Any\*\*[way]\*\*, unless he promised . . .
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### Author:  [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2006, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682/64 "2006-02-06T15:57:11Z")
> [@singular1](#):
>
> Jeezus, yes! I timed it, too, simply because I couldn’t believe how many damn commercials there were. Thank gawd for the DVR - I can FF through them, but I was getting a cramp in my thumb! I can’t imagine why they wanted to stretch a 103 minute movie into a 180 minute broadcast.
Yeah, I timed too.
My guess? This film has had enough buzz as a film, not just as a wildlife documentary, that it represented a unique opportunity for new viewers of the Discovery Channel. I was surprised to see it on DC; I was waiting for it to turn up on IFC or the Sundance Channel. I mean, it was on many major critics’ year-end topten lists. So DC figured they’d take advantage of a large audience by selling a LOT of advertising. Plus, they figured this was there chance to promote as much of their own programming as they could, to try to bring as many of these first-time viewers back. Except, I imagine that second reason backfiring, if they gave first-time viewers the impression that the Discovery Channel is the Commercials Channel. Second layer of backfire being, many people would just be FFing (member when “FF” used to stand for something else?) past all those commercials and just getting annoyed, without actually being advertised at.
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### Author:  [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2006, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682/65 "2006-02-06T16:16:03Z")
> [@lissener](#):
>
> Howcome you’re allowed an opinion on the film, but I’m not allowed an opinion about your opinion?
Of course you are allowed your opinion. I thought the idea here was to discuss differing views of the film. If only one view is allowed, well then, that view must of course be mine, and I will have to be more forceful in my arguments!
> [@](#):
>
> The problem, when you start making assumptions, is you make an ass out of “u” and “mptions.”
I didn’t really assume anything. I took available facts and drew the most logical conclusion. Perhaps they really were using a different tape a mere few hours real-time prior to the attack. Perhaps he swore a blood oath to use the tape but not listen to the last 6 minutes. Perhaps the bear switched tapes. I’ll stick with the simplest solution.
> [@](#):
>
> You’re saying the filmmaker has to follow certain rules. We’re saying no; the filmmaker should do what seems right for the film, and then the results will be judged on their own merits–by you, me, and Ebert. On their own merits; not against a “rule book.”
I think we are agreed here, we just have a different opinion on how well some of those decision work. I’m not tossing out a rule book argument. I’m saying it makes an aesthetically cleaner documentary, in my opinion, if the narrator who has been an observer for most of the film, does not choose to be an observee.
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### Author:  [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682/66 "2006-02-06T16:23:23Z")
The guy was clearly bipolar. And the projection of his issues onto the grizzlies was the most obvious I’ve ever seen. Anyone think the issues that he was dealing with was his sexuality?
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### Author:  [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2006, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682/67 "2006-02-06T16:28:31Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#):
>
> Anyone think the issues that he was dealing with was his sexuality?
A couple people have already mentioned it, and I tend to think it is a real possibility.
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### Author:  [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2006, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682/68 "2006-02-06T16:29:14Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#):
>
> The guy was clearly bipolar. And the projection of his issues onto the grizzlies was the most obvious I’ve ever seen. Anyone think the issues that he was dealing with was his sexuality?
Well, I’ve known more than one straight guy with feminine traights, so gaydar isn’t always infallible. And the way he was discussing his sexuality suggested to me that he wasn’t afraid to examine it, so I don’t see him as terribly closeted. I think his sexual issues were about connection and commitment, and about giving v. taking; I don’t think he had any closet-related issues. I believed his little speech about envying gay men’s ability to have sex without committing to a relationship, and how he just couldn’t avoid being attracted to women, despite the “inconvenience.” It rang true to me.
Non-macho does not always equal gay.
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### Author:  [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682/69 "2006-02-06T17:46:17Z")
> [@Waverly](#):
>
> I don’t get all this “Hertzog is the filmmaker, he can craft it any way he wants” business. Ed Wood was a filmmaker, does that make his judgment sound? If the filmmaker is right by definition, then we’d better write to Roger Ebert and tell him pack it in.
It’s not that the filmmaker is right by definition. It’s that there’s a difference between criticizing the filmmaker for not making the movie you would’ve made, and criticizing them for not succeeding in making the movie they wanted to make.
Ed Wood, of course, has his defenders, but it’s pretty clear (to me) that his movies aren’t what he’d like them to be, much less what anybody else would’ve liked.
(That said, I’m not saying you shouldn’t share your opinion of what worked and what didn’t. But as a fan of the coroner scene and Herzog’s approach in this documentary, I think it’s clear that he successfully translated the movie in his head to the movie on the screen. And I think the scene where he listens to the attack is the most chilling I saw last year.)
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682/70 "2006-02-06T17:54:58Z")
> [@Interrobang!?](#):
>
> But as a fan of the coroner scene and Herzog’s approach in this documentary
I thought it interesting that he kept running tape after the coroner had finished, waiting for him to say something else, almost encouraging him and didn’t edit that out.
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### Author:  [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2006, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682/71 "2006-02-06T18:02:43Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#):
>
> The guy was clearly bipolar. And the projection of his issues onto the grizzlies was the most obvious I’ve ever seen. Anyone think the issues that he was dealing with was his sexuality?
I don’t think Treadwell was a repressed homosexual. I think he was sentimental and idealistic (or if you prefer, naive), and that those qualities (exacerbated by what was certainly untreated mental illness) gradually made it impossible for him to get along in the “people” world. IOW, I don’t think he failed to maintain a long-term relationship because he was gay or sexually confused; I think that consciously or otherwise he expected too much of the people around him, which is why he slowly withdrew from human society altogether. The more he withdrew, the more he needed to because it made him increasingly less able to cope with humanity. It’s very telling how a simple altercation with an airline ticket agent sends him storming back into the wilderness, where nothing contradicts the sentimental, comforting fantasy he constructed around his bears and his own role as their protector and friend. (Well, nothing that is until that last bear …)
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### Author:  [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682/72 "2006-02-06T18:21:38Z")
> [@lissener](#):
>
> Well, I’ve known more than one straight guy with feminine traights, so gaydar isn’t always infallible. And the way he was discussing his sexuality suggested to me that he wasn’t afraid to examine it, so I don’t see him as terribly closeted. I think his sexual issues were about connection and commitment, and about giving v. taking; I don’t think he had any closet-related issues. I believed his little speech about envying gay men’s ability to have sex without committing to a relationship, and how he just couldn’t avoid being attracted to women, despite the “inconvenience.” It rang true to me.
>
> Non-macho does not always equal gay.
It was more than that.
I saw it in theaters last summer so I can’t really remember scenes/quotes that specifically formed that impression. But, still, that’s all it was was an impression – but based on more than his lack of machismo.
I guess I got the impression that Treadwell seemed ashamed of his past, ashamed of himself. Of course I’m not saying a gay person should be ashamed of himself. But, because of the way _society_ is, I think that IF a person is ashamed of themselves, that’s a more likely reason than drugs & alcohol.
It might have been the way his mom & dad talked about him, a couple things Jewel said, a couple things that Treadwell left UNSAID.
I could have been jumping to conclusions, but (you’ll have to take my word) I’m not a guy who walks around thinking, “oh, that guy has issues, he’s probably gay”.
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### Author:  [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682/73 "2006-02-06T18:38:13Z")
The scene of him in the collapsed tent hugging his teddy bear and resting his head on it was just so sad.
It haunts me to think about what he must have been feeling when he realized that the final bear was not playing, not his friend, not grateful to him, but was actually killing him. I can’t imagine the horrible feeling of having something you’ve trusted and felt like you were protecting killing you.
I bet that hurt him even more than the pain of dying.
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### Author:  [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682/74 "2006-02-06T19:15:28Z")
> [@Trunk](#):
>
> It was more than that.
>
> I saw it in theaters last summer so I can’t really remember scenes/quotes that specifically formed that impression. But, still, that’s all it was was an impression – but based on more than his lack of machismo.
>
> I guess I got the impression that Treadwell seemed ashamed of his past, ashamed of himself. Of course I’m not saying a gay person should be ashamed of himself. But, because of the way _society_ is, I think that IF a person is ashamed of themselves, that’s a more likely reason than drugs & alcohol.
>
> It might have been the way his mom & dad talked about him, a couple things Jewel said, a couple things that Treadwell left UNSAID.
>
> I could have been jumping to conclusions, but (you’ll have to take my word) I’m not a guy who walks around thinking, “oh, that guy has issues, he’s probably gay”.
I think the same kind of issues could arise in a person who’s always been teased and bullied for “seeming” gay. Bullies woudn’t distinguish, and the treatment–therefore the results–would be very much the same.
I’ve heard closeted gay guys talk about their “desire for women,” and his monologues about his sexuality convinced me that his issues were not of denial of his sexuality.
Obviously, neither of us can know. I’m just saying that all the “signs” you see I think can be easily explained in a straight guy with the specific history and issues of Treadwell. As a gay person myself, while my gaydar is not infallible, it’s pretty good usually. And as a person from the pre-gay-rights era, I’ve had a lot of dealings in and around the closet. And I get no closet whiff from Treadwell.
YMMV.
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### Author:  [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2006, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grizzly-man-documentary-open-spoilers/337682/75 "2006-02-08T05:58:25Z")
> [@Honey](#):
>
> The scene of him in the collapsed tent hugging his teddy bear and resting his head on it was just so sad.
>
> It haunts me to think about what he must have been feeling when he realized that the final bear was not playing, not his friend, not grateful to him, but was actually killing him. I can’t imagine the horrible feeling of having something you’ve trusted and felt like you were protecting killing you.
>
> I bet that hurt him even more than the pain of dying.
I agree. Wrong as he may have been about the bears, the betrayal (as he might have seen it) made it much more chilling.
The scene where the coroner gave the watch to Jewel reminded me of when Christopher Walken gave the watch to Butch in Pulp Fiction. A lot. I think I see now why everyone thinks that scene in PF is so great.
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