# Gross Miscarriage of Justice **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333 "2005-01-06T02:26:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/1 "2005-01-06T02:26:58Z")
[Link](http://www.freep.com/news/locmac/fetus5e_20050105.htm) A quick excerpt > [@](#): > > She didn’t want the baby. But prosecutors said that didn’t mean her boyfriend could bash her in the stomach to induce a miscarriage. > Now the 16-year-old Richmond Township boy faces a rarely used felony charge that could land him under the jurisdiction of the Macomb County Juvenile Court until he’s 21. I’m hard pressed to defend these kids for what they’ve done, but I see a basic unfairness in only the teen boyfriend facing charges in this case. Oddly enough this ties into many of the debates occurring recently on this board involving abortion, unwanted parenthood, unfairness towards fathers in the legal system, parental notification laws, safe sex ed. etc. etc. Now we have a singular guy being charged with a felony in which there are at least 3 other individuals who bare at least some complicity in the “crime”. I put crime in quotation marks because although there seems to be at least one chargeable offense; repeated assaults. That’s not the charge in this case. The parents who were complicit after the fact by disposing of the fetus won’t be charged. The teen girl who was complicit in the assault by consenting to it won’t be charged; ironically she’s protected under abortion rules. Just the boy is being charged. My question is how is that not a violation of equal protection or selective prosecution? ---
**Author:** ![Jake\_the\_Plumber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@Jake\_the\_Plumber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake_the_Plumber)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/2 "2005-01-06T02:43:30Z")
What a stupid and risky thing to do. The prospective mother could have very well been killed alongside the fetus. If only young teenagers had easy access to resources like Planned Parenthood that could prevent tragedies like this from taking place. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/3 "2005-01-06T02:55:43Z")
The only one who did anything wrong was the kid with the bat. The legality of abortion is beside the point. It is not legal for just anyone to PERFORM an abortion, and it’s not ok to bash somebody with a bat just because they tell you to. What kind of a psychopath would say yes? I’m not sure I bel;ieve it was her idea. It wouldn’t surprise me if this was something he bullied her into “consenting” to. I’m not sure I would charge bat boy with the exact same thing (maybe assault with a deadly weapon and performing an illegal abortion) but he should be in jail, no question. I don’t see any sense in putting the victim in jail, though, and her parents did nothing wrong either. There’s only one criminal here. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/4 "2005-01-06T03:13:10Z")
More nformation on the story here: [link](http://www.macombdaily.com/stories/010505/loc_abort001.shtml) **DtC** I always love to see you read minds, got any evidence for that belief? That’s baloney, there were multiple crimes involved here, the girl was complicit in the assualt see the above link. The parents covered up the crime after being told what hppened. Apparently also from the linked article above, the teens originally sought an abortion but couldn’t because of Parental Notification. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/5 "2005-01-06T03:19:06Z")
> [@Stuffy](#): > > More nformation on the story here: [link](http://www.macombdaily.com/stories/010505/loc_abort001.shtml) > > **DtC** I always love to see you read minds, got any evidence for that belief? Did I say it was a fact? I just said it wouldn’t surprise me. > [@](#): > > That’s baloney, there were multiple crimes involved here, the girl was complicit in the assualt see the above link. How can she be complicit in an assault on _herself_? She was the _victim_, that makes no sense. [quoet]The parents covered up the crime after being told what happened. Apparently also from the linked article above, the teens originally sought an abortion but couldn’t because of Parental Notification. [/QUOTE] They buried the fetus, there’s no law against that, is there? I guess they should have reported the boyfriend for asault but if they didn’t see it what were they really going to report. This IS a good argument against parental notification laws, though. ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/6 "2005-01-06T03:21:40Z")
Unfortunately the victim is dead. If one goes to jail, they should all go to jail as accessories or conspirators or whatever. This is just further proof that the legal system favors women in matters like these. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/7 "2005-01-06T03:24:45Z")
The only “victim” is the girl who was beaten with a bat. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/8 "2005-01-06T03:31:47Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > They buried the fetus, there’s no law against that, is there? Actually, there probably is. In addition to the fact they were knowingly hiding evidence of a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/9 "2005-01-06T03:36:00Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Actually, there probably is. In addition to the fact they were knowingly hiding evidence of a crime. According to the OP’s second link, it _wasn’t_ a crime. > [@](#): > > “Both the mothers were involved afterward. But the problem was, if the fetus or the child was viable, it would be unlawful disposal of a body. But if isn’t viable, then what they buried isn’t technically a body,” Smith explained. So it wasn’t illegal to bury it and we don’t know that _they_ knew that any crime had been committed against the girl. Maybe they just thought it was a miscarriage. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/10 "2005-01-06T03:36:22Z")
**DtC** , I’d agree with you if it didn’t say pretty explicitly that the beatings took place over “a several-week span before she finally miscarried.” If she was duped into it, couldn’t she have told someone? If not and she was unwilling, then she’s aiding him in committing a crime. If he was hitting her blindly and she was struggling (there is no indication from the article that this was the case), she’d be all bruised up for several weeks. No, I think it makes more sense to assume that she did indeed go along with it, as her confession to the police indicates. What I don’t understand (well, there’s lots I don’t understand) is why she just didn’t notify her parents about needing an abortion, rather than presenting them with a dead fetus to bury. Obviously, she didn’t need to hide it from them that badly. Something’s still not being said here. There’s no law against burying the fetus because the investigating doctor declared it was not viable at the time of the miscarriage. It’d be like burying menstrual fluid, legally speaking. Only when it’s reached viability is it considered a human body and needs to be buried according to specifics (this is all according to **Stuffy’s** link, BTW.) But yes, I think charging him with performing an illegal abortion is the only logical charge, if they feel they need to charge him at all. I say get both these kids into counseling ASAP and let them get on with their lives. Jeesh! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/11 "2005-01-06T03:39:41Z")
I don’t think it’s relevant if the girl consented. Either way, she’s the victim not the perpetrator. According to the story it was the _boy’s_ mom who buried the fetus but the story also says the girl’s mom may have been involved. Perhaps she was afraid of her father. That would make sense since girls who have abusive fathers often pick abusive boyfriends. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/12 "2005-01-06T03:42:43Z")
I was thinking of fetuses as medical waste, not as bodies. I don’t see this as a gross miscarriage of justice (just a gross pun). There’s no excuse for battering a woman, not even to force an abortion. The girl isn’t guilty of anything even if she conceded to be brutalized, but she definitely needs help. In the end, this is a heartwarming story about how parental notification rules work. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/13 "2005-01-06T03:44:10Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t think it’s relevant if the girl consented. Either way, she’s the victim not the perpetrator. > > According to the story it was the _boy’s_ mom who buried the fetus but the story also says the girl’s mom may have been involved. Perhaps she was afraid of her father. That would make sense since girls who have abusive fathers often pick abusive boyfriends. Then the boy’s mother is definitely guilty of hiding evidence of a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/14 "2005-01-06T03:47:33Z")
Only if she knew there was a crime. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/15 "2005-01-06T03:54:31Z")
_Roe v. Wade_ is based on a right of privacy between doctor and patient. So far as I am aware, no statute, constitutional provision, or court case has ever recognized a right of privacy between a girl and her bat-wielding boyfriend. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/16 "2005-01-06T03:55:22Z")
It is certainly hard to imagine a scenario where the mother didn’t know what had happened. “Here, I miscarried this.” “Let me bury it for you.” Sounds like typical June Cleaver stuff to me. Since you’re so ready to say the boy is guilty of cajoling the girl, and willing even to call the girl’s father an abuser, one wonders why’d you bother hatching crazy schemes where a mother buries evidence of her son’s crime in complete ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/17 "2005-01-06T03:57:31Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Only if she knew there was a crime. Nope. As a general principle of criminal law, the _mens rea_ (i.e., state of mind) necessary to support a criminal charge depends upon the actor’s intent/knowledge/recklessness/negilgence with respect to the _conduct_, not actual knowledge of the criminal status of said conduct. It’s no defense to jaywalking that you thought you were allowed to cross diagonally across the middle of the block as long as you looked both ways first. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/18 "2005-01-06T04:00:03Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > _Roe v. Wade_ is based on a right of privacy between doctor and patient. So far as I am aware, no statute, constitutional provision, or court case has ever recognized a right of privacy between a girl and her bat-wielding boyfriend. Is there a law against self-abortion? I’m not sure that there’s anything to charge her with. The law that the boyfriend was charged under was designed to be able to charge perpetrators of assault which cause a woman to miscarriage. I don’t think it ever occurred to them when they were writing it that a woman might _want_ to have a fetus beaten out of her with a bat so there isn’t anything written to address it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/19 "2005-01-06T04:03:07Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Nope. As a general principle of criminal law, the _mens rea_ (i.e., state of mind) necessary to support a criminal charge depends upon the actor’s intent/knowledge/recklessness/negilgence with respect to the _conduct_, not actual knowledge of the criminal status of said conduct. It’s no defense to jaywalking that you thought you were allowed to cross diagonally across the middle of the block as long as you looked both ways first. I’m not talking about being ignorant of the law, I’m saying the mothers might not have known how the miscarriage was caused. If they were told it was just some sort of spontaneous miscarriage and were unaware of the BP sessions, they wouldn’t have known there was anything to report. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/20 "2005-01-06T04:07:26Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Is there a law against self-abortion? I’m sure with Bush in office, such a thing won’t be far behind. Pretty soon zygotes will be the only ones WITH rights. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333.md?page=2)