# Gross Miscarriage of Justice **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333 "2005-01-06T02:26:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/21 "2005-01-06T04:09:24Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’m not talking about being ignorant of the law, I’m saying the mothers might not have known how the miscarriage was caused. If they were told it was just some sort of spontaneous miscarriage and were unaware of the BP sessions, they wouldn’t have known there was anything to report. Which completely explains why they buried the corpse in the middle of nowhere. C’mon, Dio, you’re smarter than that. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/22 "2005-01-06T04:11:43Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Is there a law against **self** -abortion? Please note the word I put in bold and its inapplicability to the circumstances at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/23 "2005-01-06T04:15:01Z")
Then what is she guilty of? Is it illegal for a woman to receive an abortion from a non-qualified individual? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/24 "2005-01-06T04:17:35Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Which completely explains why they buried the corpse in the middle of nowhere. > > C’mon, Dio, you’re smarter than that. Well, there must be a reason why they weren’t charged. No matter how suspicious something looks a prosecutor still has to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. If (hypothetically) all witnesses concerned were to swear that the moms didn’t know, how is a prosecutor going to meet that burden? ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/25 "2005-01-06T04:20:18Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > _Roe v. Wade_ is based on a right of privacy between doctor and patient. So far as I am aware, no statute, constitutional provision, or court case has ever recognized a right of privacy between a girl and her bat-wielding boyfriend. Ok then why isn’t the girl being charged with a crime? Her bat-weilding boyfreind isn’t a doctor so the privacy statue shouldn’t be present no? She’s at least a conspiritaor. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t think it’s relevant if the girl consented. Either way, she’s the victim not the perpetrator. Except if that’s the case he’d be facing asulat charges against her, he isn’t, he’s charged with harming the fetus. Again with her consent. > [@](#): > > According to the story it was the boy’s mom who buried the fetus but the story also says the girl’s mom may have been involved. Perhaps she was afraid of her father. That would make sense since girls who have abusive fathers often pick abusive boyfriends Since none of the stories remotely supports your thesis, now bought up for the second time and are now expanding to include the girls father, I’d suggest you drop this line of reasoning as it’s a red herring and a call to emotion. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/26 "2005-01-06T04:26:33Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Well, there must be a reason why they weren’t charged. Prosecutorial discretion and the relative culpabilities of Bat Boy vs. Buryin’ Moms are much simpler explanations than concluding that both mothers’ first thought is _“A miscarriage? How tragic. Come, we must put the baby in a shoebox and bury it in the middle of nowhere.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/27 "2005-01-06T04:29:31Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Then what is she guilty of? Is it illegal for a woman to receive an abortion from a non-qualified individual? How about conspiracy, aiding and abetting, concealment of a crime, … ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/28 "2005-01-06T04:29:51Z")
> [@Stuffy](#): > > Ok then why isn’t the girl being charged with a crime? Her bat-weilding boyfreind isn’t a doctor so the privacy statue shouldn’t be present no? She’s at least a conspiritaor. Cite? Show us the statute. > [@](#): > > Except if that’s the case he’d be facing asulat charges against her, he isn’t, he’s charged with harming the fetus. Again with her consent. I _said_ he was charged with the wrong thing. > [@](#): > > Since none of the stories remotely supports your thesis, now bought up for the second time and are now expanding to include the girls father, I’d suggest you drop this line of reasoning as it’s a red herring and a call to emotion. I don’t have a “thesis.” What are you talking about? I’m just speculating. There’s no question that anyone who would beat his pregnant girlfriend with a baseball bat is a depraved, abusive psychopath. Given that much, I’m saying _it wouldn’t surprise me_ if she was bullied into going along with this. I don’t need a cite for what wouldn’t surprise me, do I? If I do, then look no further. I am the world’s foremost authority on what would or would not surprise me. My post is indeed my cite. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/29 "2005-01-06T04:31:30Z")
> [@Stuffy](#): > > How about conspiracy, aiding and abetting, concealment of a crime, … She’s the VICTIM. Is it a crime to conceal a crime against _oneself_? Is any battered woman who doesn’t call the cops guilty of conspiracy? ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/30 "2005-01-06T04:32:22Z")
Is abortion legal in the state in question? If so, I can’t perceive the guy being found guilty. It sounds like this law is for causing an abortion when the mother isn’t willing. If it isn’t legal, then they’re obviously both guilty. One caused the abortion and the other allowed it. She would be guilty of conspiracy at the least as I said earlier. Calling her a victim is absurd. You can’t be a victim of something you consented to. It’s as simple as he killed the fetus and she aided. The only question is if killing fetuses is legal there. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/31 "2005-01-06T04:33:05Z")
> [@Stuffy](#): > > Ok then why isn’t the girl being charged with a crime? Good question. Step one is to find me a Michingan statute that says it’s a crime to abort your 6-month-old fetus. > [@](#): > > Her bat-weilding boyfreind isn’t a doctor so the privacy statue shouldn’t be present no? She’s at least a conspiritaor. Depends how you characterize the constitutional right, of course. With abortion, there’s both the “right of privacy” between the woman and her doctor and the “right to an abortion” that inures to the woman alone. Either way, Bat Boy doesn’t qualify. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/32 "2005-01-06T04:42:05Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > Is abortion legal in the state in question? Abortion is a federal right. It’s legal in _every_ state. > [@](#): > > If so, I can’t perceive the guy being found guilty. It sounds like this law is for causing an abortion when the mother isn’t willing. Yiu have a right to _receive_ an abortion, not to _perform_ one. Abortion is surgery. It is illegal to perform surgery without being licensed to do so. > [@](#): > > If it isn’t legal, It isn’t. > [@](#): > > then they’re obviously both guilty. One caused the abortion and the other allowed it. She would be guilty of conspiracy at the least as I said earlier. Calling her a victim is absurd. You can’t be a victim of something you consented to. It’s as simple as he killed the fetus and she aided. The only question is if killing fetuses is legal there. There is no victim but the woman who was beaten. It is not a crime to consent to be brutalized. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/33 "2005-01-06T04:42:55Z")
“Michigan law generally prohibits abortion after the 24th week of pregnancy without a significant health concern at play,”, but it does require “consent from one of her parents.” (Again, from Stuffy’s link). I assume, but do not know, that you must be a medical doctor licensed in Michigan to perform an abortion, as it is a medical procedure. The “miscarriage” happened at the “25th week of development,” which is actually the 27th week of _pregnancy_. They had been attempting to perform the procedure for “several weeks.” So, from several standpoints, the abortion itself was illegal. 1. They were 1-3 weeks too late for a legal abortion without a significant health risk 2. They did not (apparently) notify at least one of her parents beforehand 3. He was not (apparently) a medical doctor ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/34 "2005-01-06T04:43:09Z")
Okay, well I should have read the whole story before posting. Abortion is legal there, so no one commited a crime. That’s simplicity if I ever saw it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/35 "2005-01-06T04:45:37Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > Okay, well I should have read the whole story before posting. Abortion is legal there, so no one commited a crime. That’s simplicity if I ever saw it. Hello…did you catch the part about it being a crime to _perform_ abortions without a license? Even if you DO have a license it’s malpractice to do it with a baseball bat. Someone definitely committed a crime here but it wasn’t the girl who was beaten. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/36 "2005-01-06T04:46:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > She’s the VICTIM. Is it a crime to conceal a crime against _oneself_? Is any battered woman who doesn’t call the cops guilty of conspiracy? Except your speculations aside, she KNEW what they were trying to accomplish. She doesn’t get to wear the victim charge as they aren’t charging the guy for assaulting her. I’m working my way through Michigans criminal laws now, [this](http://www.michiganlegislature.org/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-750-90a&queryid=8828714&highlight=fetus) appears to be what he’s charged under, except I see no exceptions written under this law. Legal Eagles whay say you? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/37 "2005-01-06T04:46:26Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > Okay, well I should have read the whole story before posting. Abortion is legal there, so no one commited a crime. That’s simplicity if I ever saw it. Beating the crap out of someone is a crime. So is performing any kind of medical procedure with a baseball bat. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/38 "2005-01-06T04:48:56Z")
> [@Stuffy](#): > > Except your speculations aside, she KNEW what they were trying to accomplish. She doesn’t get to wear the victim charge as they aren’t charging the guy for assaulting her. > > I’m working my way through Michigans criminal laws now, [this](http://www.michiganlegislature.org/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-750-90a&queryid=8828714&highlight=fetus) appears to be what he’s charged under, except I see no exceptions written under this law. Legal Eagles whay say you? I will say again that I think he was charged under the wrong law and I will say agin that the ONLY victim is the girl who was beaten. Anyone who gets the crap beaten out of them with a bat is a victim whether she “consented” or not. ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/39 "2005-01-06T04:56:24Z")
That law linked is unfortunately ambiguous. In the first article, it implied there had to be assault against the pregnant woman. That isn’t the case since she consented. The actual law doesn’t state that though, so one can only speculate if the legislators intended this law for even when the woman consented. > [@cricetus](#): > > Beating the crap out of someone is a crime. So is performing any kind of medical procedure with a baseball bat. Beating the crap out of someone is not necessarily a crime. Ever watched boxing? If the person consents, you can do pretty much anything to them short of killing them. As for it being illegal to perform medical procedures with a baseball bat, I’d like to see a cite for that. Even if it was a law, it sounds like it would be a civil law, not a criminal law. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/40 "2005-01-06T05:05:18Z")
First I found the exception [here](http://www.michiganlegislature.org/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-600-2922a&queryid=8828714&highlight=fetus), so it appears the woman can in fact cause her own abortion, without sanction. Now analogy time. Person’s A B & C are friends. C happens to work the night shift at 7-11, and convinces A & B to stick up the convenience store and wound or beat him up to make the robbery appear legitimate. By DtCs logic, only A & B are guilty of a crime since C was shot or beaten he’s a victim. Unless you somehow feel… > [@](#): > > Smith and Michigan State Police Detective Sgt. Patrick Young both indicated that each of the teens has confessed during questioning **to working together on the abortion** , and there appear to be no holes or flaws in their story. … was made up whole cloth by the police. In my analogy A & B are guilty of robbery while C is guilty of consiracy, aiding and abetting and whatever they charge you with for misleading police. Tell me how this differs? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333.md?page=3)