# Gross Miscarriage of Justice **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333 "2005-01-06T02:26:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/41 "2005-01-06T05:12:10Z")
> [@Stuffy](#): > > First I found the exception [here](http://www.michiganlegislature.org/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-600-2922a&queryid=8828714&highlight=fetus), so it appears the woman can in fact cause her own abortion, without sanction. > > Now analogy time. > > Person’s A B & C are friends. C happens to work the night shift at 7-11, and convinces A & B to stick up the convenience store and wound or beat him up to make the robbery appear legitimate. By DtCs logic, only A & B are guilty of a crime since C was shot or beaten he’s a victim. Unless you somehow feel… No, because there is in this case, the victim is the owner of the store. In the case of the OP, the only victim is the girl who was brutalized by her boyfriend. She cannot be guilty of an assault against _herself_. > [@](#): > > … was made up whole cloth by the police. In my analogy A & B are guilty of robbery while C is guilty of consiracy, aiding and abetting and whatever they charge you with for misleading police. Tell me how this differs? Your scenario is not remotely analogous. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/42 "2005-01-06T05:15:45Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > That law linked is unfortunately ambiguous. In the first article, it implied there had to be assault against the pregnant woman. That isn’t the case since she consented. The actual law doesn’t state that though, so one can only speculate if the legislators intended this law for even when the woman consented. There is nothing in the law that says she can’t consent. For something to be illegal, the law has to _say_ so. If it doesn’t say so, it isn’t illegal. > [@](#): > > Beating the crap out of someone is not necessarily a crime. Ever watched boxing? If the person consents, you can do pretty much anything to them short of killing them. This is bullshit. There are all kindsof things you are not allowed to physically do to somebody no matter how much they consent. You can’t inject them with heroin, for example, and you can’t perform surgery without a license and you can’t beat the crap out of them with a baseball bat. > [@](#): > > As for it being illegal to perform medical procedures with a baseball bat, I’d like to see a cite for that. Even if it was a law, it sounds like it would be a civil law, not a criminal law. Are you serious? ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/43 "2005-01-06T05:23:59Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No, because there is in this case, the victim is the owner of the store. In the case of the OP, the only victim is the girl who was brutalized by her boyfriend. She cannot be guilty of an assault against _herself_. > > No the victim is not the girl despite your repeated assertions > > Your scenario is not remotely analogous. Really, how not? In my scenarion A B & C conspired to commit a crime. In this scenario, Girl and Boy conspire to cause an abortion (not illegal as long as apparently the girl does it herself of through a doctor) via “assault” (quasi-legal) since they worked together against well nobody. Both are crimes involving conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/44 "2005-01-06T05:26:10Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There is nothing in the law that says she can’t consent. For something to be illegal, the law has to _say_ so. If it doesn’t say so, it isn’t illegal. Great we’re getting somewhere, now find me a Michigan law that says it’s illegal to consipre with someone to beat you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/45 "2005-01-06T05:27:36Z")
No, because it’s not illegal for the girl to “conspire” to receive an abortion, only for psych boy to p[erform it with a bat. The crime is not against the fetus but against the girl. You can’t charge an assault victim with being complicit in her own assault. ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/46 "2005-01-06T05:28:52Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There is nothing in the law that says she can’t consent. For something to be illegal, the law has to _say_ so. If it doesn’t say so, it isn’t illegal. In the paragraph to which you were responding with this, I was talking about whether or not he is guilty of the crime of which he is accused, not her. You said yourself he was charged with the wrong crime so I think we agree on this point. > [@](#): > > This is bullshit. There are all kindsof things you are not allowed to physically do to somebody no matter how much they consent. You can’t inject them with heroin, for example, and you can’t perform surgery without a license and you can’t beat the crap out of them with a baseball bat. Injecting someone with heroin with consent is not specifically a crime. You’d probably be charged with posession or something like that. It certainly wouldn’t be assault, or whatever one would be charged with if there wasn’t consent. I’m fairly certain performing surgery without a license is against civil law, meaning you can be sued for malpractice but you can’t go to jail. The woman in question isn’t suing for malpractice, so this gets thrown out of the window. And beating someone with a baseball bat is legal if they tell you to do it. I would just make sure I could prove they consented to it before commencing the beating. > [@](#): > > Are you serious? Yes. Are you? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/47 "2005-01-06T05:30:24Z")
> [@Stuffy](#): > > Great we’re getting somewhere, now find me a Michigan law that says it’s illegal to consipre with someone to beat you. It’s NOT illegal. That’s what I’ve been saying. It’s only illegal for the scumbag who does it. The alleged “consent” of the victim is no excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/48 "2005-01-06T05:38:20Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > Beating the crap out of someone is not necessarily a crime. Ever watched boxing? If the person consents, you can do pretty much anything to them short of killing them. Well, not necessarily. I don’t think you can start your own boxing league in your garage. There are state regulations that cover boxing. But as I was reading that last sentance, I thought about S & M sex games. Are those illegal between consenting parties? Hitting an unwilling party with a whip would be assault, but what about hitting someone who’s (literally) asking for it? That said, I don’t see a crime here. It’s kind of weird, and sad, but I see this as no different than the girl dosing herself with pennyroyal, or asking her boyfriend to use a coathanger. What I think _is_ criminal is that the draconian abortion laws made the poor girl so desperate that she would resort to something like this. > [@WhyNot](#): > > What I don’t understand (well, there’s lots I don’t understand) is why she just didn’t notify her parents about needing an abortion, rather than presenting them with a dead fetus to bury. Obviously, she didn’t need to hide it from them that badly. Something’s still not being said here. I’d say that probably the girl didn’t know what a miscarriage of a six-month fetus would entail. She didn’t realize what a mess it would make, or the amount of pain it would cause-- that much is obvious, else she wouldn’t have thought the parents wouldn’t find out about it. She most likely _couldn’t_ hide it from her/his parents after it happened. They may have heard her screaming, or saw the blood, and I’m sure she didn’t look exactly perky afterwards. They would have, at the very least, noticed she looked very ill, and of course, demanded to know what was wrong. Once the fetus was passed, I’m sure the parents probably had no idea what to do. Do you call an ambulance for a dead fetus? Do you call the cops when there’s a miscarriage? (They probably didn’t know why she miscarried until later.) Honestly, I probably wouldn’t know what to do with a dead fetus, either. Most people don’t have a funeral after a miscarriage. In the confusion and emotion of the moment, taking it outside and burying it may have seemed the most logical solution. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/49 "2005-01-06T05:49:45Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It’s NOT illegal. That’s what I’ve been saying. It’s only illegal for the scumbag who does it. The alleged “consent” of the victim is no excuse. So what are we arguing about again? Since they’re not charging him with assault (btw, if you go back to post one, you’ll see I agree on this very point) there’s no crime here. He’s being charged with harming a fetus, which is apparently only a crime by him, if you overlook the girls obvious colussion. The guy be should be charged with assault or nothing. If you’re going to charge him with harming a fetus, the girls colussion **has** to be taken as a factor, to wit she should be charged. In any other law on the books, aiding, hiring, or coercing someone to commit a crime is itself a crime. Otherwise this is a failure of equal protection. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/50 "2005-01-06T05:53:56Z")
I’ve said like a billion times he was charged with the wrong crime. I guess we agree on that. The “crime against the fetus” thing is stupid, but the solution is not to charge even more people with the same stupid crime. ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333/51 "2005-01-06T06:06:29Z")
Ok, look, can we at least stop saying “beat the crap out of with a baseball bat”? The article doesn’t say anything about a _baseball bat_. Well, it does, but somewhat disingenuously. > [@](#): > > That apparently led to a series of secret sessions over a 2-week period where the male beat the female’s abdomen with a **22-inch souvenir-style bat** until she bled and expelled the fetus in October. (emphasis added) This is not a Louisville Slugger we’re talking about here, but rather one of those little souvenir bats. And nowhere does the article say “beat the crap out of” or even “beat and left significant bruises”. I don’t actually know what kind of blunt trauma is required to cause a miscarraige, but I would not be surprised if a two week series of smackings wouldn’t do it. In fact, here’s a website with facts about miscarriage [link](http://www.medical-library.org/journals2a/trauma_pregnancy.htm) > [@](#): > > Minor Trauma in Pregnancy > > Pregnant patients who sustain seemingly minimal trauma require an evaluation to exclude significant injuries. Common “minor” trauma includes falls, especially in the third trimester, blows to the abdomen, or “fender benders” motor vehicle accidents. It looks to me as if it is possible to cause miscarriage without “beating the shit out of the mother,” as it were. Anyway, have fun calling each other Philistines. Tenebras [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gross-miscarriage-of-justice/283333.md?page=2)