# Ground-rule doubles **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 19, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143 "2014-06-19T13:38:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/1 "2014-06-19T13:38:07Z")
Back years ago, ground-rule doubles\* were a rare event at the MLB level. I never heard of them coming into play. In the past few years, I’m seeing them fairly regularly. Last week, for instance, the Mets had two (one home and one away). However, I’m have know way of knowing if my impression is correct. So 1. Does anyone keep track of ground-rule doubles? 2. If so, has the number increased since the 70s? Is it staying the same, but I’m just seeing more? 3. If it has increased, why? \*Don’t nitpick the term. You know what I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Kiros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/439d5e/32.png) [@Kiros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiros)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/2 "2014-06-19T13:52:44Z")
Any chance that Citi Field is more likely to have ground rule doubles than Shea was, and that’s what you’re noticing? Because I think home park and perception may have something to do with what you’re saying. I know that Fenway has always had a ton of ground rule doubles because of the short wall in right, and I’m sure that a Tampa fan would have a bunch of stories related to those catwalks. ---
**Author:** ![Fleetwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fleetwood/32/271_2.png) [@Fleetwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fleetwood)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/3 "2014-06-19T14:14:15Z")
Fenway Park in Boston has always had a high amount of ground-rule doubles, due to the low outfield wall starting in center going to the first base line in right. Saw one yesterday. Boston batter hit the base of the bullpen wall in right center, the ball kicked back to the Minnesota right fielder and it caromed off his leg into the bullpen. Ground-rule double. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/4 "2014-06-19T14:25:33Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > 1. Does anyone keep track of ground-rule doubles? As far as I can tell, no. > [@](#): > > 1. If so, has the number increased since the 70s? Is it staying the same, but I’m just seeing more? I don’t know, but having grown up watching at Fenway I’d say there have always been GRDs due to the right field setup. > [@](#): > > 1. If it has increased, why? Domed stadiums, new quirky parks, astroturf? ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/5 "2014-06-19T14:32:09Z")
I have a purely anecdotal feeling that warning tracks are spongier and bouncier than they were in, say, the Seventies. Also there is a tendency toward lower walls in the newer parks, especially down the foul lines, to get the fans closer to the action. I don’t know. It _would_ be interesting to see stats. If only somebody kept them. One curiousity: Wrigley Field, which has high walls all around, would see almost zero GRD’s . . . but they have ivy, which generates a few each year. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/6 "2014-06-19T15:08:38Z")
I’ve been noticing them both home and away, so it’s not just Citi Field. I’ve also seen many where the ball bounced over the outfield fence (though the last two went into the foul line stands). But definitely ballpark design would be a part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/7 "2014-06-20T04:16:36Z")
My all-time favorite ground rule double took place in the Kingdome in Seattle back in the 90s. My family had made the trip down to see the Mariners play and in the first game we attended Mariners pitcher Billy Swift delivered a fast ball right down the chute to Minnesota Twins third baseman Gary Gaetti who lined a screamer back at Swift. Swift couldn’t react in time and took the ball right off the forehead, blowing the cap off his dome and dropping him to the ground like a sack of hammers. The ball went sideways, bounced once along the third baseline and into the stands just behind the third base dugout. Ground rule double. It took some time to revive Swift and help him off the field (all the while they replayed the incident from every camera angle imaginable on the Jumbotron) but, in a feat of true machismo, he didn’t miss a start, taking the ball again five days later. Anyway, although I’m sure stats on ground rule doubles exist somewhere, I’m guessing that field design is the main factor in whether they happen or not. Most of the diamonds built in the 60s, 70s and 80s were of fairly uniform size, with 10-12 foot high walls, so bouncing balls up and over would be a challenge and so, perhaps, ground rule doubles were more rare in those years. Weirdly shaped places like Fenway and some of the modern diamonds which have been built with all manner of goofy outfield dimensions just for shits and giggles have low walls and such allowing balls to get out on the bounce. And, as mentioned by **Freddy the Pig** , Wrigley has balls disappear into the ivy all the time. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/8 "2014-06-20T04:36:51Z")
Hmmm…I learned something new today. Apparently, those bounce-over-the-wall doubles are not technically “ground rule” doubles, but “automatic doubles.” The Wrigley lost-in-the-ivy double, though, is a true “ground rule double.” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/9 "2014-06-20T12:13:26Z")
That’s technically true, but the term “Ground rule double” is so commonly used it’s pretty much the word now. One of the reasons ground rule doubles used to be common but now are not is that artificial turf used to be common and now is not. Turf is bouncy. Only two parks have turf now, Toronto and Tampa Bay, and within a few years Toronto won’t have it anymore. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/10 "2014-06-20T13:02:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That’s technically true, but the term “Ground rule double” is so commonly used it’s pretty much the word now. Oh, I’ve never come across anyone calling it an “automatic double” (or “rulebook double” or whatever the other versions are) before. “Ground rule double” is the way I’ve always heard it. I was just surprised in researching the OP’s question to find out that technically they weren’t “ground rule doubles.” > [@](#): > > One of the reasons ground rule doubles used to be common but now are not is that artificial turf used to be common and now is not. Turf is bouncy. Only two parks have turf now, Toronto and Tampa Bay, and within a few years Toronto won’t have it anymore. Well, the OP’s impression seems to be the opposite. My memories are more along yours, that ground rule doubles were more common back in the artificial turf years. I’m also surprised there doesn’t seem to be a compilation of statistics out there that breaks down “natural” doubles from ground rule doubles. I’d’ve thought Baseball Reference would have it for sure, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/11 "2014-06-20T13:14:23Z")
The problem of compilation is that ground rule doubles are scored the same as doubles in a box score, so you have to find it elsewhere. But considering how many things have been counted these days, I’m surprised no one has thought to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/12 "2014-06-20T13:19:52Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Oh, I’ve never come across anyone calling it an “automatic double” (or “rulebook double” or whatever the other versions are) before. “Ground rule double” is the way I’ve always heard it. I was just surprised in researching the OP’s question to find out that technically they weren’t “ground rule doubles” Some announcers, notably Jon Miller, do say “rule book double”, but it hasn’t really caught on, even though it’s more correct. The Wrigley-ivy double is also a rule-book double, since it’s covered in the playing rules. I believe Wrigley Field has a redundant ground rule saying that such a hit is a double, to make matters even more confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Pixel\_Dent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Pixel\_Dent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixel_Dent)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/13 "2014-06-20T13:33:51Z")
There are certainly more ground rule doubles today than there were prior to 1930. Before that they were ruled to be home runs. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/14 "2014-06-20T13:58:51Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Some announcers, notably Jon Miller, do say “rule book double”, but it hasn’t really caught on, even though it’s more correct. The Wrigley-ivy double is also a rule-book double, since it’s covered in the playing rules. I believe Wrigley Field has a redundant ground rule saying that such a hit is a double, to make matters even more confusing. I’m just going by Baseball Reference, which lists the [Wrigley rule](http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/ground_rule_double) as an example of a “ground rule double.” > [@](#): > > The ground rules technically only cover ways in which the ball can become unplayable, such as becoming lodged in the ivy at Wrigley Field; the rulebook specifies that the award is always two bases. So it’s not really redundancy. The ground rules define “unplayable.” The rule book defines the award. Otherwise, I’m really struggling to think of what would be a “ground rule double” if you discount those. Do you have any examples of “ground rule doubles” that are not covered by the “unplayable” rule in the rule book? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/15 "2014-06-20T14:58:46Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Well, the OP’s impression seems to be the opposite. My memories are more along yours, that ground rule doubles were more common back in the artificial turf years. I’m also surprised there doesn’t seem to be a compilation of statistics out there that breaks down “natural” doubles from ground rule doubles. I’d’ve thought Baseball Reference would have it for sure, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. Yeah, it’s not an officially counted stat. I have little doubt, though, that they are now less common. Bounce-off-the-turf doubles used to happen all the time at concrete turf stadia like Busch Stadum, Three Rivers, Riverfront, Veterans Stadium, the old Royals Stadium, and the like. The Metrodome was famous for bounce doubles. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/16 "2014-06-20T15:17:15Z")
I’d personally like to change the rule where any runner at 1st has to stop at 3rd automatically, to let him score at the discretion of the third base ump, whose responsibility would thus be to line himself up appropriately so that he can simultaneously see the runner rounding third and what the ball is doing. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/17 "2014-06-20T15:20:02Z")
I’d make it even more cut and dried, the way officials prefer it in the everything’s on replay era of sports. If the runner leaving first was in motion at the moment of contact, then let him score. That would be the 1B ump’s call. ---
**Author:** ![Ponch8](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponch8/32/9883_2.png) [@Ponch8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponch8)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/18 "2014-06-20T15:23:10Z")
There also used to be ground-rule triples in rare circumstances (e.g., if a ball rolled into a section of field that was roped off for overflow crowds back in the early days) IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/19 "2014-06-20T18:10:29Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > So it’s not really redundancy. The ground rules define “unplayable.” The rule book defines the award. Otherwise, I’m really struggling to think of what would be a “ground rule double” if you discount those. Do you have any examples of “ground rule doubles” that are not covered by the “unplayable” rule in the rule book? Per the playing rules, Rule 7.05(f): > [@](#): > > Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, > advance—Two bases, if a fair ball bounces or is deflected into the stands outside the first or third base foul lines; or if it goes through or under a field fence, or through or under a scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery or vines on the fence; or if it sticks in such fence, scoreboard, shrubbery or vines; Clearly the ivy-ball is covered by the playing rules. Ground rules cover items unique to a particular park which are not covered by the playing rules, or where the application of the playing rules might be unclear–for example, what happens if the ball strikes the various catwalks in Tampa Bay. Here are the [ground rules for Minute Maid Park](http://houston.astros.mlb.com/hou/ballpark/groundrules.jsp) in Houston, which has some unusual angles and features. As you can see many of these are semi-redundant with the playing rules; for example the playing rules specify that a ball which “sticks” in the “fence” is a double; the ground rules make clear that a ball which “lodges on top of the outfield padding” is in fact stuck in the fence. ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143/20 "2014-06-21T02:14:13Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Do you have any examples of “ground rule doubles” that are not covered by the “unplayable” rule in the rule book? I can’t think of any off the top of my head that apply to current diamonds, but IIRC, a ball hit off the speakers in the old Minnesota Metrodome was considered a ground rule double. Likewise, if someone managed to hit the roof of Olympic Stadium in Montreal in fair territory it was a ground rule double. I remember that last one because I saw Darryl Strawberry do just that in an Opening Day game TV broadcast in the Big O back in '88 or '89 – he hit a moon shot that struck the collar where the retractable roof connected up to the permanent roof and was credited with a ground rule double. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-rule-doubles/691143.md?page=2)