# Ground Zero Imam -- How moderate does he sound?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 25, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425 "2010-06-25T00:18:00Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/1 "2010-06-25T00:18:00Z")
Read this quickly before Tomndebb sends it off to the Pit. đ
A couple of weeks ago when I weighed in with my opinion on the appropriateness of building a Mosque/Islamic centre near ground zero, I was assured that the Islamic group planning this centre is nice and civilized and moderate, yadda, yadda.
Read this article from the June 19 New York Post quoting the Imam behind the project [here](http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/imam_terror_error_efmizkHuBUaVnfuQcrcabL)
Here are a few relevant quotes:
\*The imam behind plans to build a controversial Ground Zero mosque yesterday refused to describe Hamas as a terrorist organization.
According to the State Departmentâs assessment, âHamas terrorists, especially those in the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks, including large-scale suicide bombings, against Israeli civilian and military targets.â
Asked if he agreed with the State Departmentâs assessment, Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf told WABC radio, "Look, Iâm not a politician.
âThe issue of terrorism is a very complex question,â he told interviewer Aaron Klein.
âThere was an attempt in the '90s to have the UN define what terrorism is and say who was a terrorist. There was no ability to get agreement on that.â
Asked again for his opinion on Hamas, an exasperated Rauf wouldnât budge.
âI am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy,â Rauf said, insisting that he wants to see peace in Israel between Jews and Arabs.
Rauf also would not answer a question about Egyptâs outlawed Muslim Brotherhood.
âI have nothing to do with the Muslim Brotherhood. My father was never a member of the Muslim Brotherhood,â he said, disputing a rumor.
Raufâs position has come under a microscope as he leads an effort to build a $100 million mosque and community center at 45 Park Place, near Ground Zero. \*
Complex??? A bunch of Muslim fanatics hijack planes, slit the throats of the flight personnel, and fly the planes full of terrified passengers into the WTC, murdering thousands of innocent Americans. Guess what? I consider that terrorism. Real easy call. Not complex at all.
This same âmoderateâ Imam who wants peace in Israel between Jews and Arabs is also a key player in the publicity stunt to run Israelâs perfectly justified blackade, designed to stop Hamas from raining down 10,000 rockets on the heads of innocent Israelis. See the article [here](http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/imam_unmosqued_0XbZMwCvHAVdRZEKgx29AK)
It seems Mr. Moderate-Harmless-Liberal is a prominent member of a group that helped sponsor the pro-Palestinian activists who clashed violently with Israeli commandos at sea.
What would an immoderate, unliberal Imam be like, I wonder?
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/2 "2010-06-25T00:35:38Z")
Er, what?
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### Author:  [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/3 "2010-06-25T00:40:05Z")
> [@Valteron](#):
>
> Complex??? A bunch of Muslim fanatics hijack planes, slit the throats of the flight personnel, and fly the planes full of terrified passengers into the WTC, murdering thousands of innocent Americans. Guess what? I consider that terrorism. Real easy call. Not complex at all.
I missed where he said anything about 9/11. Could you point it out. It looks like he was talking about Hamas and terrorism. Lots of people get very cagey when talking about things they are close too. There were many many catholic priests that were at least sympathetic to the IRA and would have answered questions about the IRA like this guy did about Hamas. Should none of these priests have churches. How people from different communities view terrorists and their actions is complex. You may not like it but thatâs the case. There was many an American who would have talked about the brave freedom fighters in Northern Ireland back in the day.
If this guy has controversial ideas, so what? Itâs not illegal. Donât go to his place of work if you donât like it. There are many churches in the US and elsewhere that preach hatred towards some people they donât agree with. This may be one of them or it may not but again so what. Itâs not that close to the 9/11 site as far as I can see.
The objections to this place seem to be based in problems with Islam itself. You live in âthe land of the freeâ, deal with it.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/4 "2010-06-25T00:42:19Z")
Hamas is a terrorist organization by any fair definition, but I wouldnât be surprised to learn that the key quote in that article was pulled out of context. The NY Post is basically a tabloid these days, with a history of selective quoting and similarly misleading journalism in efforts to stir up faux controversy (see, e.g., Khalil Gibran Academy).
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### Author:  [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/5 "2010-06-25T00:43:15Z")
Shortly after 9-11, the âmoderateâ Imam told _60 Minutes_: âI wouldnât say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.â
He also told the same interview that: âFanaticism and terrorism have no place in Islam.â Since by his own admission he is unable to define terrorism, one wonders how he knows it has no place in Islam.
In 2004, the âmoderateâ Imam is [reported](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/21/1079789939987.html) as saying
The US and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end. . . . . .
Speaking from his New York mosque, Imam Feisal said the West had to understand the terroristsâ point of view.
For a guy who canât define âterrorismâ he seems to know a lot about it.
I guess there were moderate Nazis, moderate Communists, moderate Klansmen. It is all relative, I suppose.
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### Author:  [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/6 "2010-06-25T00:48:52Z")
> [@Valteron](#):
>
> He also told the same interview that: âFanaticism and terrorism have no place in Islam.â Since by his own admission he is unable to define terrorism, one wonders how he knows it has no place in Islam.
Itâs not that silly an idea. He claims terrorism is a very complex question (which seems reasonable). I think that American football is a very complex sport. Yet if I saw some tall, slim guys bouncing an orange ball around and dunking it into a net, iâd be able to declare they arenât playing football.
Your point really isnât aided by the massive hyperbole youâre bringing to this. Dial it down, and youâll likely be able to make an argument.
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### Author:  [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/7 "2010-06-25T00:48:59Z")
People _read_ the NY Post?
I thought it was only used for pix of the sports teams + useful for lining kitty litter trays.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/8 "2010-06-25T00:51:12Z")
> [@Valteron](#):
>
> Complex??? A bunch of Muslim fanatics hijack planes, slit the throats of the flight personnel, and fly the planes full of terrified passengers into the WTC, murdering thousands of innocent Americans. Guess what? I consider that terrorism. Real easy call. Not complex at all.
That was Al Qaeda, not Hamas.
> [@Valteron](#):
>
> Shortly after 9-11, the âmoderateâ Imam told _60 Minutes_: âI wouldnât say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.â
U.S. policies did have a role to play in what happened. I didnât think it was offensive to point that out.
> [@](#):
>
> Since by his own admission he is unable to define terrorism
He didnât say he was unable to define terrorism.
> [@](#):
>
> For a guy who canât define âterrorismâ he seems to know a lot about it.
It sounds like you are saying anyone who expresses any understanding of terrorism or knowledge of the motives of terrorists may be a terrorist.
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### Author:  [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/9 "2010-06-25T00:57:24Z")
> [@Valteron](#):
>
> Shortly after 9-11, the âmoderateâ Imam told _60 Minutes_: âI wouldnât say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.â
So he doesnât think the US deserved 9/11. I take it you agree with that?
He calls 9/11 a crime. I take it you agree with that?
He says that US **policies** were an accessory to the crime. Now you may think that US policies have been 100% right for the last 50 years and letâs say that you are actually empirically right in your opinion just for shits and giggles. I hate to break it to you but some people disagree with you. They may be wrong but they still disagree. Some had enough anger in them that they flew planes into buildings killing themselves and thousands of innocents. Rightly or wrongly US actions had a direct link to those terrorist actions. It didnât happen in a vacuum.
But again, even if he is a Hamas supporting, blockade breaking supporter. So what?
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/10 "2010-06-25T01:00:36Z")
> [@yojimbo](#):
>
> But again, even if he is a Hamas supporting, blockade breaking supporter. So what?
I gather that in some previous thread it was asserted that this Imam preached mainstream, moderate Islam. So if he is a Hamas supporter, either he is outside the mainstream, or it confirms **Valteron** âs view of what mainstream Muslims believe.
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### Author:  [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/11 "2010-06-25T01:05:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> That was Al Qaeda, not Hamas.
>
> He didnât say he was unable to define terrorism.
> It sounds like you are saying anyone who expresses any understanding of terrorism or knowledge of the motives of terrorists may be a terrorist.
He did not say the words: _âI canât define terrorismâ_, admittedly. What he said was âThe issue of terrorism is a very complex question. . . .
There was an attempt in the '90s to have the UN define what terrorism is and say who was a terrorist. There was no ability to get agreement on that.â
If, in spite of this massive uncertainty on his part he is still able to define terrorism, then why did he not do so for the reporter and apply his definition to Hamas? Surely if he has a definition he can apply it? But then again, if he had admitted Hamas was terrorist, he would have been in a strange position as a major player in attempts to run the Israeli blackade.
So he refuses to discuss what terrorism is, or whether Hamas is terrorist. But he is willing to cooperate in busting the blockade that Israel imposed after Hamas rained 10,000 rockets down on its civilians. But he refuses to say if this is terrorism because it is such a complex matter. Yeah, right. Lotta double talk from saintly Mr. Moderate.:dubious:
By the way, where did I say he himself was a terrorist?
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/12 "2010-06-25T01:09:08Z")
> [@Valteron](#):
>
> If, in spite of this massive uncertainty on his part he is still able to define terrorism, then why did he not do so for the reporter and apply his definition to Hamas?
You already quoted his answer to this question.
> [@](#):
>
> By the way, where did I say he himself was a terrorist?
I didnât say you said he was a terrorist. I said you said he _may_ be one, and you did say that. You wrote âFor a guy who canât define âterrorismâ he seems to know a lot about it.â
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### Author:  [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/13 "2010-06-25T01:11:53Z")
Weird shit. Youâve really got to be looking for a fight to not see this man is looking to build bridges.
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### Author:  [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/14 "2010-06-25T01:13:12Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#):
>
> I gather that in some previous thread it was asserted that this Imam preached mainstream, moderate Islam. So if he is a Hamas supporter, either he is outside the mainstream, or it confirms **Valteron** âs view of what mainstream Muslims believe.
OK, fair enough. Firstly I donât think that a case has been made for him as being outside the mainstream. Maybe he is but firstly what the mainstream is would have to be defined. The quotes show a guy dodging questions. He actually says when pushed that heâs dodging them as he does not allow âanybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemyâ. Seems fair enough if your goal is to help. You need to talk to the headcases if you are to change anything and slagging them off before you try doesnât help.
Secondly **Valteron** âs problem is with the mosque, all this is just window dressing and âgotcha yaâ BS IMO and not even good quality BS at that.
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### Author:  [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/15 "2010-06-25T01:19:34Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#):
>
> I gather that in some previous thread it was asserted that this Imam preached mainstream, moderate Islam. So if he is a Hamas supporter, either he is outside the mainstream, or it confirms **Valteron** âs view of what mainstream Muslims believe.
This is more or less what I was told in another thread. This is a marvellously liberal, moderate form of Islam, apparently.
BTW, since when is âmainstreamâ synonymous with âmoderateâ? PEW research, for example, showed that potentially hundreds of millions of Muslims believe suicide attacks against civilians are âsometimesâ justifiable. Now, I am not saying that was the majority. It was a huge minority. The exact figures escape me now but you can find them in Sam Harrisâ book âThe End of Faithâ. In other words, a Muslim can very well believe in the âsad necessityâ of suicide bombings and while he would be in the minority, he would not be any outside the mainstream than, say, an American who opposes gun control.
If you accept a figure of 5-8 million Muslims in America, it is statistically conceivable that one or two million feel that suicide bombings against civilians are sometimes acceptable. Sleep well!
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/16 "2010-06-25T01:20:36Z")
> [@yojimbo](#):
>
> OK, fair enough. Firstly I donât think that a case has been made for him as being outside the mainstream. Maybe he is but firstly what the mainstream is would have to be defined. The quotes show a guy dodging questions. He actually says when pushed that heâs dodging them as he does not allow âanybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemyâ. Seems fair enough if your goal is to help. You need to talk to the headcases if you are to change anything and slagging them off before you try doesnât help.
I donât necessarily disagree â just trying to clarify what I saw as the issue. Talking to the head cases cuts both ways, of course. Refusing to call Hamas a terrorist group might allow an Imam to reach people on the verge of radicalizing, but it also alienates some natural allies.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/17 "2010-06-25T01:22:22Z")
**Valteron** , the terms arenât synonymous. Thatâs why I used them both. If they were synonymous, using one or other would have done nicely.
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### Author:  [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/18 "2010-06-25T01:24:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> I didnât say you said he was a terrorist. I said you said he _may_ be one, and you did say that. You wrote âFor a guy who canât define âterrorismâ he seems to know a lot about it.â
So I still donât see where I said he âmayâ be a terrorist. You are projecting. I was in fact saying, for a person who feels terrorism is too complex for him to say if Hamas is terrorist or not, he sure knows a lot about how the US has to repent its evil actions in order to stop terrorism. I never even implied he was or may be a terrorist.
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### Author:  [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/19 "2010-06-25T01:26:05Z")
> [@Valteron](#):
>
> This is more or less what I was told in another thread. This is a marvellously liberal, moderate form of Islam, apparently.
>
> BTW, since when is âmainstreamâ synonymous with âmoderateâ? PEW research, for example, showed that potentially hundreds of millions of Muslims believe suicide attacks against civilians are âsometimesâ justifiable. Now, I am not saying that was the majority. It was a huge minority. The exact figures escape me now but you can find them in Sam Harrisâ book âThe End of Faithâ. In other words, a Muslim can very well believe in the âsad necessityâ of suicide bombings and while he would be in the minority, he would not be any outside the mainstream than, say, an American who opposes gun control.
>
> If you accept a figure of 5-8 million Muslims in America, it is statistically conceivable that one or two million feel that suicide bombings against civilians are sometimes acceptable. Sleep well!
The person who this thread is about however is quoted **by you** as saying that 9/11 was a undeserved crime.
[ETA as I somehow cut it off] His feelings about general suicide bombers are unknown or at least not quoted by you.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/20 "2010-06-25T01:26:20Z")
> [@Valteron](#):
>
> If you accept a figure of 5-8 million Muslims in America, it is statistically conceivable that one or two million feel that suicide bombings against civilians are sometimes acceptable. Sleep well!
And given that Muslims are a smallish minority, itâs âstatistically conceivableâ - in fact near inevitable - that millions more non-Muslims think attacks on civilians are acceptable.
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