# Ground Zero Imam -- How moderate does he sound? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425 "2010-06-25T00:18:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/41 "2010-06-25T02:39:21Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Hamas didn’t kill thousands on 9-11. How can you have such strong opinions on this and yet be so utterly uninformed? I AM PERFECTLY AWARE THAT HAMAS DID NOT CARRY OUT 9-11, THANK YOU. Why do you insist that if I mention 9-11 as an example, that must mean I think Hamas performed 9-11? I first mentioned 9-11 in my OP. Did I say it was done by Hamas? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! ME \*\*NO \*\*SAY THAT!!! What I did was that I used 9-11 in my OP as an example. Here this Imam is sitting in New York a short distance from the site of the biggest Muslim terrorist act in history, and calmly saying that terrorism is something “too complex” for him to say what is or is not terrorism. What I was saying was that he doesn’t need to look very far to see a clear example of real, no-kidding, genuine terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/42 "2010-06-25T02:39:39Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Hey, I was agreeing with you. It’s the blacks fault. Do you think that racists hatred of them is not based on their behavior? Same with Jews, it was their actions that caused the hatred of them. If those faggots weren’t out there holding hands and provoking people there would be no gay bashing. Why do you think most Mulsims that hate America hate us? Our freedom? Surely you don’t think that. I’m not saying our foreign policy is wrong, I’m saying that it does piss off a lot of people. The analogy to reconstruction-era blacks is without merit. Blacks (who in your poorly made analogy represent America) weren’t the ones in power and weren’t pushing around the lynchers (in your analogy represented by the Muslim world [subtle, by the way :D]). Do you think that America’s foreign policy in the middle east over the last century could be seen as a reason to get angry by poor, uneducated people? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/43 "2010-06-25T02:40:14Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Dude, get some fucking help. Your obsession with this “Ground Zero mosque” is approaching some kind of mental disorder. A little close to personal insults for GD. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/44 "2010-06-25T02:43:45Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I think it has roots in the fact that the west, led by America, represents progress, freedom, separation of church and state, the enlightenment and the rights of the individual, which is in direct opposition to the basic ideas of submission to a violent theocracy upon which Islam is founded. > > Our gender equality to them represents immoral and immodest women. > > Our tolerance and even acceptance of gays constitutes for them encouragement of filth and perversion among people who should be killed or at least lashed. > > We represent a concept in which all religions are equal, but the secular law is above all religions. They tell us that the world must be subject to the law of Allah, not man-made law. > > We separate state and religion, they want their religion to BE the world-wide caliphate. > > I could go on, but it is getting late, and the differences between the west and Islam would take all night to list. So you think they hate us for our freedom. Wow, I honestly didn’t think anyone actually thought that. Consider my ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/45 "2010-06-25T02:45:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > BTW, **Valteron** , your “has he stopped beating his wife” questions are not doing anything to keep this thread in **GD**. If you are only here to rant, you can do it in the **Pit**. If you want a discussion, try to impart some intelligence to your own arguments. > [/Modding] Go ahead, Tom, you know you want to Pit it! BTW, the Muslim answer to “has he stopped beating his wife” is that Surah 4, verse 34 does not really refer to beating physically, or maybe it refers to beating but not too hard and not on the face, or maybe a ritual beating with a very small branch, and anyway, you do not speak Arabic so you can’t really judge what it says, so shut up and submit to Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/46 "2010-06-25T02:48:29Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So you think they hate us for our freedom. Wow, I honestly didn’t think anyone actually thought that. Consider my ignorance fought. Like the Muslims say at thgeir demos: “Freedom go to Hell” and “Democracy is the cancer, Islam is the answer.” Wanna see some pictures? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/47 "2010-06-25T02:48:46Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I AM PERFECTLY AWARE THAT HAMAS DID NOT CARRY OUT 9-11, THANK YOU. Why do you insist that if I mention 9-11 as an example, that must mean I think Hamas performed 9-11? I first mentioned 9-11 in my OP. Did I say it was done by Hamas? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! ME \*\*NO \*\*SAY THAT!!! You seem to think that Hamas are the same people who performed 9-11. You certainly aren’t trying very hard to show how informed you are about this topic. > [@](#): > > What I did was that I used 9-11 in my OP as an example. Here this Imam is sitting in New York a short distance from the site of the biggest Muslim terrorist act in history, and calmly saying that terrorism is something “too complex” for him to say what is or is not terrorism. What I was saying was that he doesn’t need to look very far to see a clear example of real, no-kidding, genuine terrorism. Has Hamas ever flown a plane into a skyscraper? If 9-11 is an example of _According to Hoyle_ terrorism, what has Hamas done that is very similar? This is getting funny. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/48 "2010-06-25T02:50:10Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > We separate state and religion, they want their religion to BE the world-wide caliphate. That is a _very_ wide “they”, to the point that it’s a false statement. The desire to be the religion that everyone follows is quite common among religions, and the idea that coercion is a way to get there is by no means universal among Muslims. Not even close. There are lots of things to criticize Islam for… but this is just silly. ETA: Yikes! Fast moving thread! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/49 "2010-06-25T02:50:57Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Like the Muslims say at thgeir demos: “Freedom go to Hell” and “Democracy is the cancer, Islam is the answer.” Wanna see some pictures? I can show you Christians with signs as bad or worse. Can you understand why this isn’t evidence of anything? Isn’t this getting humiliating for you yet? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/50 "2010-06-25T03:05:42Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I think it has roots in the fact that the west, led by America, represents progress, freedom, separation of church and state, the enlightenment and the rights of the individual, which is in direct opposition to the basic ideas of submission to a violent theocracy upon which Islam is founded. What in the world makes you think that a significant number of people outside the US buy that? America has typically acted against freedom, against separation of church and state, against the rights of women (even to the extent of often allying with conservative Muslims on the matter), and on and on. We are hated as Christian Crusaders, mass murderers and the supporters of puppet dictators; not as the champion of truth and justice. The world knows that when America says “democracy and freedom” what it actually means is “mass slaughter until you submit”. ---
**Author:** ![badlyburnttoast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@badlyburnttoast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badlyburnttoast)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/51 "2010-06-25T04:49:47Z")
Lets pretend he really is some rabid freedom hating terrorist loving radical jihadist (which I don’t believe for a second). SO WHAT? Last I checked we still have freedom of religion and freedom of speech. If anyone is allowed to build a church at that spot, then he is allowed to as well no matter what religion he belongs to. If he wants to preach that America is the devil and we all deserve to be blown up and bin laden is the best guy in the whole world well that’s his right as an American. If you don’t like that, too goddamn bad. Maybe you could move to some great country that suppresses those rights - I hear North Korea is pretty nice this time of year. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/52 "2010-06-25T04:53:41Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Why do you think most Mulsims that hate America hate us? Our freedom? Surely you don’t think that. > > I’m not saying our foreign policy is wrong, I’m saying that it does piss off a lot of people. The analogy to reconstruction-era blacks is without merit. Blacks (who in your poorly made analogy represent America) weren’t the ones in power and weren’t pushing around the lynchers (in your analogy represented by the Muslim world [subtle, by the way :D]). > > Do you think that America’s foreign policy in the middle east over the last century could be seen as a reason to get angry by poor, uneducated people? But the hijackers were not poor, uneducated people. Neither is Osama Bin Laden, and neither was Yasaar Arafat. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/53 "2010-06-25T04:56:35Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So you think they hate us for our freedom. Wow, I honestly didn’t think anyone actually thought that. Consider my ignorance fought. Don’t let that strawman catch on fire. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/54 "2010-06-25T05:06:36Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > So what is the Imam afraid will slip out if he gets into an argument, pray tell? :rolleyes: The simplest and most likely answer is that he is afraid that if he makes even the most curt and reasonable political argument, various news outlets would twist his words and take his words out of context in order to make it look like he’s a crazy guy. These fears are clearly quite well-founded, seeing as that is what you are doing right now. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/55 "2010-06-25T05:13:38Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > But the hijackers were not poor, uneducated people. Neither is Osama Bin Laden, and neither was Yasaar Arafat. We were talking about general anti-Americanism. Even someone as educated as Valteron seems to be able to irrationally dislike a group of people for trumped up reasons. > [@](#): > > Don’t let that strawman catch on fire. Reread his post. If you weren’t ideologically pre-disposed to want to side with Valteron, you might realize that he really thinks our foreign policy isn’t why we’re hated. It’s honestly sad to think that someone has so strongly internalized the mindless jingoism of the last administration. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/56 "2010-06-25T11:12:22Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > But the hijackers were not poor, uneducated people. It’s been a long time since I looked into this, but I think you’re oversimplifying here. What I remember is that some of them were educated and came from middle class backgrounds, including Mohammed Atta and other guys who flew the planes. The muscle guys were not educated and not as well-off. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/57 "2010-06-25T11:23:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s been a long time since I looked into this, but I think you’re oversimplifying here. What I remember is that some of them were educated and came from middle class backgrounds, including Mohammed Atta and other guys who flew the planes. The muscle guys were not educated and not as well-off. Yep, mostly middle-class, educated family men. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/58 "2010-06-25T11:47:59Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > What I did was that I used 9-11 in my OP as an example. Here this Imam is sitting in New York a short distance from the site of the biggest Muslim terrorist act in history, and calmly saying that terrorism is something “too complex” for him to say what is or is not terrorism. What I was saying was that he doesn’t need to look very far to see a clear example of real, no-kidding, genuine terrorism. No, he doesn’t. He doesn’t say that terrorism is too complex to say anything about it whatsoever. Saying something is complex does not mean that there are zero known or agreed upon things to it. I’ve already made this argument to you upthread - if you reject it, or disagree, i’d be very interested in hearing your response. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/59 "2010-06-25T12:09:51Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I think it has roots in the fact that the west, led by America, represents progress, freedom, separation of church and state, the enlightenment and the rights of the individual, which is in direct opposition to the basic ideas of submission to a violent theocracy upon which Islam is founded. > > Our gender equality to them represents immoral and immodest women. > > Our tolerance and even acceptance of gays constitutes for them encouragement of filth and perversion among people who should be killed or at least lashed. > > We represent a concept in which all religions are equal, but the secular law is above all religions. They tell us that the world must be subject to the law of Allah, not man-made law. > > We separate state and religion, they want their religion to BE the world-wide caliphate. > > I could go on, but it is getting late, and the differences between the west and Islam would take all night to list. Wait, you want to tell him he can’t practise his religion because America is a free country which separates church and state and considers all religions equal? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/60 "2010-06-25T12:18:03Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Wait, you want to tell him he can’t practise his religion because America is a free country which separates church and state and considers all religions equal? 😕 Some religions are more equal than others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425.md?page=4)