# Ground Zero Imam -- How moderate does he sound? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425 "2010-06-25T00:18:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/61 "2010-06-25T12:19:18Z")
The Imam sounds more moderate than Valteron. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/62 "2010-06-25T12:38:36Z")
FWIW from Wikipedia, there was a bit of cherry-picking in the “accessory” quote in the OP, which commences “Fanaticism and terrorism have no place in Islam”. That seems fairly condemnatory to me. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/63 "2010-06-25T12:40:02Z")
[Present for you](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=568488), **Valteron** (and **Perciful** too). ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/64 "2010-06-25T13:59:46Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I think it has roots in the fact that the west, led by America, represents progress, freedom, separation of church and state, the enlightenment and the rights of the individual, which is in direct opposition to the basic ideas of submission to a violent theocracy upon which Islam is founded. > [@Valteron](#): > > Our gender equality to them represents immoral and immodest women. We have total gender equality? And Paris Hilton isn’t helping this perception of America. > [@Valteron](#): > > Our tolerance and even acceptance of gays constitutes for them encouragement of filth and perversion among people who should be killed or at least lashed. Except where we kill them and beat them and deny them basic rights. Or even appearances on TV commercials. > [@Valteron](#): > > We represent a concept in which all religions are equal, but the secular law is above all religions. They tell us that the world must be subject to the law of Allah, not man-made law. What’s that book the President puts his hands on at the swearing-in? And I think there’s many Christians who would agree with them qute closely. > [@Valteron](#): > > We separate state and religion, they want their religion to BE the world-wide caliphate. No, we really don’t, to a large extent. One nation under God? > [@Valteron](#): > > I could go on, but it is getting late, and the differences between the west and Islam would take all night to list. If Islam were some sort of monolithic force, as you suggest, then why would so many Arabic people be killed by bombs and bullets sent by their countrymen? And you didn’t answer the question about your opinon of our policies and their effect in causing 9/11 to some extent. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/65 "2010-06-25T15:00:30Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I think it has roots in the fact that the west, led by America, represents progress, freedom, separation of church and state, the enlightenment and the rights of the individual, which is in direct opposition to the basic ideas of submission to a violent theocracy upon which Islam is founded. > > Our gender equality to them represents immoral and immodest women. > > Our tolerance and even acceptance of gays constitutes for them encouragement of filth and perversion among people who should be killed or at least lashed. > > We represent a concept in which all religions are equal, but the secular law is above all religions. They tell us that the world must be subject to the law of Allah, not man-made law. > > We separate state and religion, they want their religion to BE the world-wide caliphate. > > I could go on, but it is getting late, and the differences between the west and Islam would take all night to list. Change Islam to Christianity and Allah to Jesus and you have described every Evangelical Fundy church I have ever seen. Including the Mega-Church that dominates my current town. The differences between the West and Islam are not as big as you pretend. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/66 "2010-06-25T15:35:02Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > This same “moderate” Imam who wants peace in Israel between Jews and Arabs is also a key player in the publicity stunt to run Israel’s perfectly justified blackade, designed to stop Hamas from raining down 10,000 rockets on the heads of innocent Israelis. See the article [here](http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/imam_unmosqued_0XbZMwCvHAVdRZEKgx29AK) > > It seems Mr. Moderate-Harmless-Liberal is a prominent member of a group that helped sponsor the pro-Palestinian activists who clashed violently with Israeli commandos at sea. > > What would an immoderate, unliberal Imam be like, I wonder? Was the attempt to run the bloackde any less legal than the blocakde itself? Was the attempt to run the blockade any less justified than the blockade itself? BTW, who brought guns to that party, the commandoes or the activists? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/67 "2010-06-25T17:07:55Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Hamas is a terrorist organization by any fair definition, but I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that the key quote in that article was pulled out of context. Isn’t the problem that there isn’t “any fair defintiion” of what a terrorist is that provides us with something valuable? It’s such a value-laden term. I’m not suggesting we stop using it, but I don’t think it provides anything of value other than showing our disagreement with the people so labeled. The ANC were classified as terrorists for many years. The French resistance (in particular to the Vichy government) could easily be classified as a terrorist movement. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/68 "2010-06-25T17:11:50Z")
> [@villa](#): > > It’s such a value-laden term. I’m not suggesting we stop using it, but I don’t think it provides anything of value other than showing our disagreement with the people so labeled. The ANC were classified as terrorists for many years. The French resistance (in particular to the Vichy government) could easily be classified as a terrorist movement. “Shock and Awe” fits as well for a lot of people. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/69 "2010-06-25T17:18:49Z")
I guess it’s late in the game to point out that the “Ground Zero Imam” is not proposing to do any imam-ing on Ground Zero. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/70 "2010-06-25T17:54:29Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Right on!! Being black had a direct link to lynchings. If they hadn’t been black they would not have been lynched. Now you may not agree that black people should be lynched, I hate to break it to you but some people disagree with you. They may be wrong but they still disagree. Some had enough anger in them to lynch black people. Rightly or wrongly being black had a direct link to those lynchings. I think there might be a difference between hating someone because of the color of skin they were born with and hating someone for this things they have done. Its like the difference between lynching someone for being black and lynching someone for stealing horses. It doesn’t justify lynching but the horse thief shares some of the blame for the lynching. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/71 "2010-06-25T17:57:04Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > LOL, Dan! And I forgot to mention, as many Muslims have told me on the web, gays who are subject to gay-bashings by gangs of Muslim thugs in London, Amersterdam and now Sweden, have brought it on themselves by flaunting their disobedience to the law of Allah! > > And of course we all know that women who are raped brought it on themselves with immodest dress. Burqas anyone? You can order them online here! [Burka, Niqab, and Khimar Collection - Alhannah Islamic Clothing](http://www.alhannah.com/niqab.html) No, you’re not trying to criticize muslims generally at all. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/72 "2010-06-25T18:22:43Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > You’re right! I will not call Hitler bad! I will not call people who killed thousands in 9-11 bad! Stalin was not bad! > > Is he trying to make peace, or is he aware that a very large proportion of his flock would turn against him if he dared to say that Hamas are terrorists? Al Qaeda, I can see but are you really comparing Hamas to Hitler and Stalin? Perhaps it the imam had been as non-commital about Hitler, al Qaeda and Stalin as he was about the militant arm of Hamas, I could see your point but otherwise it looks like you can’t distinguish between the Holocaust and what is going on in the Middle East right now. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/73 "2010-06-25T18:29:25Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So you think they hate us for our freedom. Wow, I honestly didn’t think anyone actually thought that. Consider my ignorance fought. You must have been asleep during every Bush speech on the matter (either that or I am being whooshed). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/74 "2010-06-25T18:32:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What in the world makes you think that a significant number of people outside the US buy that? America has typically acted against freedom, against separation of church and state, against the rights of women (even to the extent of often allying with conservative Muslims on the matter), and on and on. Uncle Der Trihs, why is the sky blue and where did the Taliban come from? > [@](#): > > We are hated as Christian Crusaders, mass murderers and the supporters of puppet dictators; not as the champion of truth and justice. The world knows that when America says “democracy and freedom” what it actually means is “mass slaughter until you submit”. Does it still mean that or is that mostly holdover from the Cold War? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/75 "2010-06-25T18:35:55Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Don’t let that strawman catch on fire. But that is pretty much what was said: > [@valteron](#): > > I think it has roots in the fact that the west, led by America, represents progress, freedom, separation of church and state, the enlightenment and the rights of the individual, which is in direct opposition to the basic ideas of submission to a violent theocracy upon which Islam is founded. See “they” hate us for among other things, our freedom which is in direct oppsition to Islams foundation of violent theocracy (as opposed to israel’s peaceful theocracy). ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/76 "2010-06-25T19:43:49Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Yep, mostly middle-class, educated family men. So not “poor and uneducated”. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/77 "2010-06-25T19:46:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think there might be a difference between hating someone because of the color of skin they were born with and hating someone for this things they have done. Its like the difference between lynching someone for being black and lynching someone for stealing horses. It doesn’t justify lynching but the horse thief shares some of the blame for the lynching. So the people who died in the World Trade Tower deserved it because of their actions? Does that include the firemen and policemen as well? How about any Muslims in the Trade Center? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/78 "2010-06-25T20:13:43Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > So the people who died in the World Trade Tower deserved it because of their actions? Does that include the firemen and policemen as well? How about any Muslims in the Trade Center? Weren’t you the one just bitching about straw men? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/79 "2010-06-25T21:24:52Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > The Imam sounds more moderate than Valteron. So does Der Trihs. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425/80 "2010-06-25T21:26:03Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Weren’t you the one just bitching about straw men? 😃 No I’m serious. You said it was OK to hate Americans because of their actions. So the people in the Trade Towers (at least the Americans) deserved to be hated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-imam-how-moderate-does-he-sound/544425.md?page=5)