# Ground Zero Mosque **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663 "2011-09-08T21:51:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/21 "2011-09-09T13:09:50Z")
> [@fusoya](#): > > Being two blocks away in lower Manhattan is like being in two different states. There’s a CHURCH closer to ground zero (on Church St, no less!) than 42 Park Place is. Correct. And this is why I say “misguided” as opposed to stupid. In many places, perhaps _most_ places, two blocks is nothing. In Manhattan, it can be a dramatic difference in neighborhoods. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/22 "2011-09-09T14:36:45Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I think it’s more or less accurate to call it a “mosque,” since it does have a prayer space that, according to what I’ve read, accommodates 2,000 people. There are plenty of giant “megachurches” all over the US that have movie theaters, basketball courts, swimming pools, exercise rooms, libraries, and all kinds of other stuff in addition to the prayer area, and nobody would say that those weren’t still churches. But it is certainly _not_ at “Ground Zero,” and the outrage towards it is totally misdirected. That’s silly. It’s a community center. The purpose of the center, as I understand it, is to provide the community of Lower Manhattan a place for enriching recreational, social, and artistic activities. The fact that it has a prayer center is incidental to its purpose and largely to accommodate a very active and plentiful Islamic community. The fact that it’s a large prayer center speaks to its populous location in, you know, Manhattan. An analogous example with which you may be familiar is the YMCA, which is a community center steeped in Christian values that provides its surrounding community with enriching activities of a recreational and social nature. They, too, often contain chapels within their walls, but they are not centers that are synonymous with churches. A church is much more than just a place one goes to pray. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/23 "2011-09-09T15:26:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If they oppose the community center because they hold all Muslims accountable for 9/11, they’re morons and bigots. If they don’t hold all Muslims accountable for 9/11 but oppose the community center anyway, they’re assholes. Absolutely correct. And it doesn’t matter if there were to be a mosque all by its lonesome built on the very spot of the WTC (after purchasing the land from the government entities currently holding it, of course). Freedom of religion is an important liberty. Allowing bigots to have their way erodes liberty. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/24 "2011-09-09T17:25:16Z")
In case anyone is wondering, the project is currently stalled because of a lack of financial backing, but there’s a small protest planned near the site on September 11 anyway. Plus, Congressman Allen West is [hosting screenings of a movie](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/62855.html) about the project produced by some wingnut advocacy group. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/25 "2011-09-09T17:36:14Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Absolutely correct. And it doesn’t matter if there were to be a mosque all by its lonesome built on the very spot of the WTC (after purchasing the land from the government entities currently holding it, of course). Freedom of religion is an important liberty. Allowing bigots to have their way erodes liberty. Well, maybe. Such a mosque would unquestionably be legal. I would not call it the wisest use of public relations capital. “Dykes on Bikes” are a staple of Gay Pride events, but are not the best image to use in a campaign for same-sex marriage rights… even though they too are unquestionably legal. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/26 "2011-09-09T17:41:15Z")
Depending on local helmet laws. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/27 "2011-09-09T23:47:51Z")
There is no debate here, provided the group are the rightful owners of the property (or properly renting it) they are perfectly free to exercise their constitutional right by using it as an Islamic prayer centre or even a mosque. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/28 "2011-09-10T00:40:13Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I think it’s more or less accurate to call it a “mosque,” since it does have a prayer space that, according to what I’ve read, accommodates 2,000 people. There are plenty of giant “megachurches” all over the US that have movie theaters, basketball courts, swimming pools, exercise rooms, libraries, and all kinds of other stuff in addition to the prayer area, and nobody would say that those weren’t still churches. But it is certainly _not_ at “Ground Zero,” and the outrage towards it is totally misdirected. I disagree. It’s no more a mosque than a YMCA is a church or a JCC is a synagogue. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/29 "2011-09-10T03:40:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, maybe. > > Such a mosque would unquestionably be legal. I would not call it the wisest use of public relations capital. > > “Dykes on Bikes” are a staple of Gay Pride events, but are not the best image to use in a campaign for same-sex marriage rights… even though they too are unquestionably legal. That’s not equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/30 "2011-09-10T03:52:39Z")
> [@I\_Know\_Nothing](#): > > I disagree. It’s no more a mosque than a YMCA is a church or a JCC is a synagogue. Show me a YMCA that has a “prayer space” for two _thousand_ people. There’s no comparison. I don’t have anything _against_ this center, but I just don’t think it’s inaccurate to call it a mosque. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/31 "2011-09-10T04:42:24Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Show me a YMCA that has a “prayer space” for two _thousand_ people. There’s no comparison. I don’t have anything _against_ this center, but I just don’t think it’s inaccurate to call it a mosque. A mosque is a religious structure. This isn’t. Do you have a cite that the prayer space particularly for Muslim worship can hold 2000 people? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/32 "2011-09-10T06:07:46Z")
I don’t think churches should be allowed to be built near ground zero. Christians always make everything about religion ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/33 "2011-09-10T06:56:03Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > A mosque is a religious structure. This isn’t. Do you have a cite that the prayer space particularly for Muslim worship can hold 2000 people? Plus, what’s the occupancy load in a room designated for a religious activity for a building containing that room to qualify as a religious structure? I think we can safely conclude that 2000 is at or above that number. Is the actual number 2000? Is it 1000? What about 25? Is 25 not enough people? I need to know soon. I’m calling my parents tonight and it’d be nice to reassure them that the church where they got married was, in fact, a church and not just “some building.” Come to think of it, the last religious marriage ceremony I attended was in the Seoul Korea Temple and there were only about 20 people there, since the room can’t hold more than that. I guess that means the Temple’s not a religious structure either. Or is it? After all, we haven’t really set a number. Let’s be honest here. It’s not merely an issue of numbers. Those against this edifice aren’t upset about the number of people. They’re upset about the number of people who happen to be Muslim being greater than one. The whole issue is prejudice. To assert otherwise is pandering to the bigots. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/34 "2011-09-10T17:24:34Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Let’s be honest here. It’s not merely an issue of numbers. Those against this edifice aren’t upset about the number of people. They’re upset about the number of people who happen to be Muslim being greater than one. The whole issue is prejudice. To assert otherwise is pandering to the bigots. What’s so interesting to me is that disapproval of the community center is directly proportional to how far you are from the WTC site. That is to say, the closer you are to the actual WTC site , the more likely you are to **approve** of the construction of the Park51 community center. When the issue was very much in the news, [Nationally, 71% opposed the plan](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20014737-503544.html) [In New York City, 52% opposed the plan In Manhattan, 36% opposed the plan](http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/New-Yorkers-Oppose-Ground-Zero-Mosque-Poll-97602569.html) [The Community Board of the neighborhood where the WTC stood approved the plan 29-1](http://abcnews.go.com/US/mosque-plan-clears-hurdle-protests/story?id=10747570) Interesting, innit? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/35 "2011-09-10T17:44:39Z")
And then you got your Muslims who were directly responsible for preventing terrorism. Did anyone stop and ask “Who was that mosqued man? I wanted to thank him…”? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/36 "2011-09-10T18:42:17Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > A mosque is a religious structure. This isn’t. Do you have a cite that the prayer space particularly for Muslim worship can hold 2000 people? [Here](http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/05/06/2010-05-06_plan_for_mosque_near_world_trade_center_site_moves_ahead.html) (er…NY Daily news, eh) Maybe that’s where he’s getting it from? > [@](#): > > Once built, 1,000 to 2,000 Muslims are expected to pray at the mosque every Friday, she said. I would be opposed to the idea of a mosque/center that appeared to be created to incite people, not to fill a need, not to mention the questionable politics of the backers of the project. It does seem grossly insensitive and flashy. As far as their rights go, of course they have a right to build a mosque, just as the people of Mosborough, Tennessee do. So if I had been sitting on the neighborhood board who voted to let the center be built, I would have voted ‘yes’ as well. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/37 "2011-09-10T19:40:34Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > As far as their rights go, of course they have a right to build a mosque, just as the people of Mosborough, Tennessee do. So if I had been sitting on the neighborhood board who voted to let the center be built, I would have voted ‘yes’ as well. The Community Board did not say “they have a right to it so we have to let them.” It was a non-binding advisory vote, and they stated it would be a positive for the neighborhood. A Board member called it “a seed of peace.” In other words, CB1 said they not only have a right to build, they _should_ do it and are welcomed. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/38 "2011-09-10T19:59:18Z")
It doesn’t change my vote. I thought I explained that if it wasn’t for once principle, it would be another…? I’m not in the business of questioning motives when people want to exercise their religious freedoms. I really try not to. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/39 "2011-09-10T20:44:11Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > It doesn’t change my vote. I thought I explained that if it wasn’t for once principle, it would be another..? > > I’m not in the business of questioning motives when people want to exercise their religious freedoms. I really try not to. The vote was not a zoning vote, it was an advisory vote whether the planned construction was a good idea. Since you don’t think it was, it WOULD change your vote. It wouldn’t change the vote of anyone on the CB, because when asked if they thought it was a good idea, they said “definitely yes.” I bet you don’t live in CB1, right? Therefore, as predicted, you are more likely to think its a bad idea than people who actually live there. As predicted by the poll numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/40 "2011-09-10T21:15:26Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I would be opposed to the idea of a mosque/center that appeared to be created to incite people, not to fill a need, not to mention the questionable politics of the backers of the project. It does seem grossly insensitive and flashy. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > I’m not in the business of questioning motives when people want to exercise their religious freedoms. I really try not to. Apparently, you need to try harder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663.md?page=3)