# Ground Zero Mosque **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663 "2011-09-08T21:51:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/41 "2011-09-10T21:25:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Apparently, you need to try harder. My point was that people have said so and so had bad motives. Of course I’d oppose the center based on that - as have others, [Muslims included](http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/58984/muslims-opposed-to-mosque-project-enter-the-fray/). Some people who oppose the Islamic center _are_ bigots. Others think it’s a matter of tact. If anyone asked, I’d share that they have the legal right to do it. In the beginning, I automatically thought anyone who opposed it were bigoted assholes. I have since tried to see other people’s point of view. Beyond your understanding, I presume. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/42 "2011-09-10T21:43:44Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > [Here](http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/05/06/2010-05-06_plan_for_mosque_near_world_trade_center_site_moves_ahead.html) (er…NY Daily news, eh) > > Maybe that’s where he’s getting it from? Maybe. But 1,000 to 2,000 Muslims praying over the course of a Friday is not the same claim as the building having a prayer room that holds 2,000 people. > [@](#): > > I would be opposed to the idea of a mosque/center It’s not a “mosque/center” and you know it. > [@](#): > > that appeared to be created to incite people, not to fill a need If you say so. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/43 "2011-09-11T01:15:31Z")
Then what is it? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/44 "2011-09-11T01:30:07Z")
[Center/Mosque](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/nyregion/new-quiet-effort-for-big-islamic-center-near-ground-zero.html?_r=2&emc=eta1) > [@](#): > > Mr. El-Gamal said his vision remained: a Muslim-led community center modeled on the Jewish Community Center on the Upper West Side, where his children learned to swim. It would be open to all, with a pool, a theater and cultural, religious and interfaith programming. And the site, which is already used for Muslim worship, would include a mosque. > > He said the ultimate form of the center, called Park51, and its building would be determined after consultation with two main audiences, residents of Lower Manhattan and Muslims who live in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut. Mr. El-Gamal also said he would assess the community response to the events now held at Park51’s makeshift space, varying from art exhibits and yoga and Brazilian martial arts classes to Muslim holiday observances and a discussion for Muslim and non-Muslim children about bullying. I don’t think that people who are opposed to the place are necessarily bigots. I’m saying that I can see where _some_ people are coming from. It doesn’t mean they are _right_. It means they may have some logical thought process going on there. Trying to place a disclaimer in front of your position, such as, “it’s not a mosque”, “it’s a community center”, or “it’s just like the JCC” isn’t helping your POV if it isn’t factual. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/45 "2011-09-11T02:09:36Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Trying to place a disclaimer in front of your position, such as, “it’s not a mosque”, “it’s a community center”, or “it’s just like the JCC” isn’t helping your POV if it isn’t factual. People have to correct you when your descriptive terms belie an agenda or bias. Calling it a mosque, or a “mosque/center”, or any other term that attempts to convey that it’s _primarily_ a mosque, is inaccurate. The plan is for 13% of it to be a mosque. It’s a lot like referring to the president as B. Hussein Obama. It’s a descriptive term that has a root in fact, but it makes it clear the speaker has an agenda. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/46 "2011-09-11T03:22:12Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Then what is it? It’s a community center that has a prayer room in it. It’s purpose is not to “incite people.” > [@Algorithm](#): > > The plan is for 13% of it to be a mosque. See above. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/47 "2011-09-11T03:32:37Z")
You’re right, of course. My intention was to convey that the majority of the plan has nothing to do with prayer or worship. The 13% was in reference to a plan for a 15 story building, two floors of which were to be used as a prayer space. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/48 "2011-09-11T03:46:42Z")
At any rate, it _doesn’t matter_ if it’s a mosque, or a community center, or a mosquenity center. If someone wants to build a mosque in Manhattan, they have a perfect right to do so. Building a mosque does not qualify as “inciting people”. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/49 "2011-09-11T03:49:38Z")
I found the following, though I’m not sure how accurate the information is. > [@](#): > > Ten per cent of the building’s floor space will be dedicated to prayer. However, the prayer space will not be limited to Muslims — there will be no minaret, room for ablutions, or other essential features of a mosque. Park51 is a place open to anyone who would like to pray. It is a multi-purpose building which welcomes all communities, religions, cultures, races, and ethnicities. [http://www.excal.on.ca/edop/ground-zero-mosque-not-actually-a-mosque/](http://www.excal.on.ca/edop/ground-zero-mosque-not-actually-a-mosque/) ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/50 "2011-09-11T04:15:47Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > People have to correct you when your descriptive terms belie an agenda or bias. Calling it a mosque, or a “mosque/center”, or any other term that attempts to convey that it’s _primarily_ a mosque, is inaccurate. The plan is for 13% of it to be a mosque. > > It’s a lot like referring to the president as B. Hussein Obama. It’s a descriptive term that has a root in fact, but it makes it clear the speaker has an agenda. While I can appreciate the comparison (I was one of the zillion who put “Hussein” as her middle name on Facebook in mock protest), it’s not a good one. There is a community center **and** a mosque. They are now [two separate fundraising ventures](http://www.downtownexpress.com/?p=2413). That’s why I put the “/” in there. > [@](#): > > Though they are two separate legal entities, El-Gamal spoke of the future facility as one, all-encompassing center that will be open daily and will host Arabic language classes and a variety of other secular services. The prayer space alone will accommodate some 2,000 people. The “Prayer Space” is the mosque. Check out their [website](http://www.prayerspacenyc.org/). While it certainly needs development, it is currently in function as a, well, mosque for Muslims. > [@](#): > > > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > > > It’s a community center that has a prayer room in it. It’s purpose is not to “incite people.” > > > > See above. Eh; no. You see above. > [@Algorithm](#): > > You’re right, of course. My intention was to convey that the majority of the plan has nothing to do with prayer or worship. The 13% was in reference to a plan for a 15 story building, two floors of which were to be used as a prayer space. The original plan had one development with a mosque in it. Now they are separate, but people are still protesting it regardless…perhaps out of ignorance. I donno. It would appear that supporters of the mosque/center are unaware of some of the facts as well. The article I linked to in the Times upthread said that the space will not be 15 stories. Five is more likely. > [@MEBuckner](#): > > At any rate, it _doesn’t matter_ if it’s a mosque, or a community center, or a mosquenity center. If someone wants to build a mosque in Manhattan, they have a perfect right to do so. Indeed. > [@](#): > > Building a mosque does not qualify as “inciting people”. Building a mosque in and of itself is not an incitement. But some - and by _some_ I mean rightwing Christians to Muslim leaders - have criticized the original plan, the supporters, and the way it was gone about. This is why I said I thought that people who opposed it were just bigots. Then I actually read what some of the not-Glenn-Becks-of-the-world had to say and I started to consider their reservations. > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I found the following, though I’m not sure how accurate the information is. > > [http://www.excal.on.ca/edop/ground-zero-mosque-not-actually-a-mosque/](http://www.excal.on.ca/edop/ground-zero-mosque-not-actually-a-mosque/) That’s sweet and all, except the center that he talks about hasn’t been furnished with a pool and 13 stories of glory. And he failed to mention the mosque next door. So, again, it would appear that some people in this thread are confused about the site (or sites) and current plans for it. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/51 "2011-09-11T05:21:35Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > The “Prayer Space” is the mosque. Check out their [website](http://www.prayerspacenyc.org/). While it certainly needs development, it is currently in function as a, well, mosque for Muslims. A prayer space is not a mosque. Just as hospitals don’t have “churches” in them, community centers don’t have “mosques” in them. > [@](#): > > Building a mosque in and of itself is not an incitement. But some - and by _some_ I mean rightwing Christians to Muslim leaders - have criticized the original plan, the supporters, and the way it was gone about. **You** claimed that it appears the purpose of the center was to incite people, not that right-wing Christians had criticisms. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/52 "2011-09-11T05:38:16Z")
Okay. I just took a better look at the prayer space website. It is indeed separate from Park 51. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > That’s sweet and all Really? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > except the center that he talks about hasn’t been furnished with a pool and 13 stories of glory. How do you know there’s no pool? Park 51 isn’t 13 stories? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/53 "2011-09-11T06:42:42Z")
CitizenPained: I’m still waiting for an answer on what the occupancy load is for that structure to be considered primarily a place of worship. As I mentioned upthread, my parents might like to be reassured that the place where they got married was, in fact, “in a church.” Also, a few of my friends here in Korea might like to be reassured that their nuptials were, in fact, “in church” also. I wouldn’t be surprised, either, that the federal government would like to know that it has been operating one building at least (the Pentagon) that isn’t really the headquarters of the Department of Defense but is rather a church, a synagogue, and even a mosque! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/54 "2011-09-11T06:55:48Z")
I’ll come right out and ask you straight, CitizenPained: What other religions besides Islam do you think should be prohibited “out of tact”? And don’t tell me that’s not your position. It is as you’ve stated that you think it shouldn’t be practiced at that center in Manhattan, meaning that you think it should be prohibited. By the way, what you call _tact_, I’m calling _pandering to bigots_. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/55 "2011-09-11T15:00:34Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I’ll come right out and ask you straight, CitizenPained: What other religions besides Islam do you think should be prohibited “out of tact”? And don’t tell me that’s not your position. It is as you’ve stated that you think it shouldn’t be practiced at that center in Manhattan, meaning that you think it should be prohibited. > > By the way, what you call _tact_, I’m calling _pandering to bigots_. No, the two are not in fact the same. That said, I’m still awaiting either a citation or a retraction on the claim that the centre was built with the purpose to incite people. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/56 "2011-09-11T15:17:36Z")
There are people among us who are specially gifted, who can peer into the hearts and minds of people they know nothing about, and take the inventory. For them, it is child’s play to uncover the hidden motivation, the secret agenda, the merest glance is enough. While lesser minds are mired in complexity and a futile search for understanding, they leap nimbly to the simple and solid center of the thing, they are not burdened with doubt. We are blessed, for they are abundant, they are Legion, and they are always with us. There are many different names for such as these. I have mine own. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/57 "2011-09-11T15:21:19Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > No, the two are not in fact the same. Actually, in this case, they certainly are. > [@](#): > > That said, I’m still awaiting either a citation or a retraction on the claim that the centre was built with the purpose to incite people. Me, too. I’m also awaiting an answer on my query regarding occupancy load to qualify as a primarily religious structure. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/58 "2011-09-11T16:31:08Z")
Sorry, just to clarify: I meant that “people shouldn’t X” and “X should be prohibited by law” are different in both concept and practice. I wasn’t referring to the tact/pandering thing. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/59 "2011-09-11T17:13:37Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > **You** claimed that it appears the purpose of the center was to incite people, not that right-wing Christians had criticisms. I think the average New Yorker would say that right wing Christians are a hell of a lot less welcome in Lower Manhattan than the ultra-liberal muslims who want to build this center. They’re like the Unitarians of Islam. Believing they are intending to incite anything would be laughable if it weren’t so sad. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663/60 "2011-09-11T17:21:56Z")
[http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.solarnavigator.net/geography/geography\_images/New\_York\_City\_Lower\_Manhattan\_World\_Trade\_Center\_August\_2001.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.solarnavigator.net/geography/new\_york.htm&h=421&w=663&sz=32&tbnid=rKkr51-KS0KShM:&tbnh=75&tbnw=118&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dpictures%2Bof%2Bnew%2Byork%2Bwith%2Btwin%2Btowers%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=pictures+of+new+york+with+twin+towers&docid=kYZgJOQxQwZXlM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8e1sTp3rF\_LH0AGB06SIBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CB4Q9QEwAQ&dur=676](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.solarnavigator.net/geography/geography_images/New_York_City_Lower_Manhattan_World_Trade_Center_August_2001.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.solarnavigator.net/geography/new_york.htm&h=421&w=663&sz=32&tbnid=rKkr51-KS0KShM:&tbnh=75&tbnw=118&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dpictures%2Bof%2Bnew%2Byork%2Bwith%2Btwin%2Btowers%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=pictures+of+new+york+with+twin+towers&docid=kYZgJOQxQwZXlM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8e1sTp3rF_LH0AGB06SIBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CB4Q9QEwAQ&dur=676) here’s a picture of New York without religion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ground-zero-mosque/595663.md?page=4)