:smack: Because it’s a plan. It hasn’t been implemented yet. The plan has changed a few times. What was going to be a ‘prayer space’ in the center is now a separate space that is a mosque.
I think if a place says it’s a mosque, it’s a mosque. They have self-identified the Prayer Space to be a mosque. Do you disagree with them or me? Because I’m going off of what the organizers say. If you would like to lead a campaign that says The Mosque is Not a Mosque, be my guest.
“This mosque is a symbol of the future of Muslims in America”
:smack:
Please cite. I did not. And again, your failure to compute the basic aspects of the mosque and center are not my problem.
I have now cited several times that the space next to park 51 (49-51) is indeed a mosque and the fundraising is separate. I’m not making this shit up. I did not write the NYT article that called it a mosque, I did not create the Prayer Space website and call it a mosque. There’s no Eebil Plan of mine to infiltrate the intarwebs and mislead the Christian right into thinking there’s a plan to build a mosque for Muslims when there is no plan to build a mosque for Muslims.
Ah, I see. You’re either arguing against a hypothetical, but then kind of sort of but maybe not for sure (?) suggesting it applies to this particular centre via appeals to expert authority, or you’re arguing that the “appearance” is important, again with the cites to authorities, ignoring that the “appearance” was pure and utter bullshit.
So, the argument here seems to be that the Muslims should move their whatever-it-is to someplace else, out of consideration of the feelings of all those good salt-of-the-Earth Americans who just honestly find something about this building or its location to be “insensitive”.
I’m not a Muslim. If they want to move this thing, I guess that’s their business. I can’t help but wonder, though, exactly where the line is beyond which mosques or community centers or prayer spaces cease to be “insensitive” to some people’s feelings, and (presumably) become OK. Exactly how far away from Ground Zero is far enough? Greenwich Village? New Jersey? The far side of the moon?
Slippery slope arguments are kind of notorious on the Internet, often for good reason, but I would note that, for some Americans, Murfreesboro, Tennessee is apparently too darned close to Ground Zero (or maybe it’s the Pentagon) to bear having a mosque there.
Like I said, I’m not a Muslim. If this were a controversy over an Atheist Center, and for some reason it was us godless heathens who were being asked to be more considerate of the sensitivities and feelings of whoever was objecting to us, my reaction would be to not give one damned inch.
Just because someone says, “I don’t think this should be here” or “this is insensitive” doesn’t mean you automatically get to say OMG BIGOT ! ! ! !! !
I think Dean said it best when he pointed out that surely 70 per cent of America couldn’t be Islamophobes.
There were plenty of people who objected to the Tolerance Museum building another center on what is now a parking lot over what was an old Muslim cemetery decades ago. There are people who oppose building a synagogue or permanent structures in disputed territories, or Jews who are still mad that the Dome is on top of the Temple Mount or that the Cave of the Patriarchs is enclosed by a mosque and Muslims don’t want Jews there. Just because someone has a legal or perceived right to do something doesn’t mean it’s ‘the right’ thing to do. There are countries/places that some Dopers can’t go to by virtue of being Jewish and/or holding an Israeli passport (or stamp). But…that’s their right as sovereign nations to place limits on immigration and such. The ACLU will stick up for neo-Nazis who want to have rallies because it’s their legal right, but it doesn’t mean they agree with the message.
So I think there’s a distinction between saying, “You don’t have the right to do this” and “I don’t think it’s appropriate”.
Since I don’t know the minds of the center/mosque committees, I can’t really judge. I lack impartiality - one of the partners in the project is the nephew of Amr Moussa. I’ll readily admit that. I’ve questioned the tact of leaders, but I’ve never objected to the building of the mosque. Or center. In fact, when it was just a center, I pointed out to many that it wasn’t a mosque…not that it matters in Dopeland, where apparently I am part of an Eebil Conspiracy to Invade the Intarwebs and Put Up Fake Websites about Proposed Mosques.
‘Mosque’ is a limiting term. Islamic community center is just a better descriptor of the project as a whole. Calling it a mosque understates the mainly secular goals of the center and causes confusion about what the purpose of Park51 actually is.
I want to underline something that was mentioned in passing. That is, the branch of Islam representative of the Muslims behind this project are known as the Sufi. The Sufi have a long tradition of mysticism and meditation. The best qualities of the Christian tradition…compassion, mercy, love… are reflected in Sufi teaching. They stand in stark contrast to certain Islamic traditions of stern law. Some of them translate jihad to mean actual direct conquest of unbelievers, Sufi see it as a matter of personal struggle against fault. A “spirtual struggle”, if you will, or if you can.
They also have a tradition of deep and sometimes whimsical aphorisms, a bit like the *koans *of Zen. A little bit. They’re both short. My personal favorite: “God respects me when I work, but He loves me when I sing.”
Of all the Islamic traditions, the Sufi are the most humane and tolerant. Not surprisingly, the uptight Islamic traditionalists hate their guts. It is so very weird to see them the focus of such irrational fear. It would be like of you were in a Buddhist country and found them saying how much they hated and feared the Amish. Its the kind of black irony that makes Little Baby Satan chuckle.
When it comes to Buddhists, though, a solid majority of Americans–85%–claimed to have no prejudice towards them. Whereas, with Muslims, 43% admitted to having at least some free-floating prejudice towards Muslims–and that was apparently just on a general question about prejudice towards Muslims. Throw in some specifics–“A mosque at Ground Zero!” or worse yet “An Islamic victory mosque at Ground Zero, commemorating the victory of the Jihadists over America on 9/11, built by people with close ties to Al Qaeda!!!”–and the numbers go up.
Of course, 70% of Americans are probably not hard-core “nuke all the ragheads” bigots. I assume the 70% number comes from a poll in which that percentage of the public expressed opposition (however defined) to the “Ground Zero mosque”. I’m sure you could shift that percentage down (or up) by how you framed the issue, exactly how you word the question, and so forth.
Islam is not a religion that’s traditionally indigenous to the United States. Neither is Buddhism. But (without getting into the Barbary Pirates) Americans have been having problems with various people who happen to be Muslim for at least 40 years now–the Arab oil embargo, Palestinian plane hijackings, the Iranian hostage crisis, bombings in Lebanon, hostage takings in Lebanon, various spats with Muammar Gaddafi, a couple of major wars with Iraq, and of course most traumatically the September 11 attacks. Of course these various conflicts have diverse causes and involved diverse groups of people, some of whom were religious extremists–of assorted incompatible stripes–and others of whom were or are mostly secular nationalists, and some of those are Muslims in about the same way the Corleone family are Catholics.
Given all that, I really don’t find it hard to believe at all that as many as 70% of Americans are, to some degree, prejudiced against Islam or Muslims in general.
Fair enough. It may be worth pointing out, however, that the Catholics haven’t waged war in the name of Catholicism against Protestants in America…ever…that I know of.
Various Islamic countries have been waging war in the name of Islam since its foundation. I think this may contribute to prejudices…prejudice against Jews would surely go up if Israel went to war with the U.S.
Medieval Christians–and early modern Christians–were perfectly capable of waging war for Christianity (or waging war in the name of Christianity, whatever their actual motives were). You know, the usual list–the Albigensian Crusade, the Thirty Years War, the Conquistadors in the Americas, and so forth. (We won’t even count the Crusades in the Holy Land, or the Reconquista in Spain, since many Christians would maintain those were a defensive reactions to previous Muslim conquests.) Catholics have never been in a position to wage war against Protestants in America, but both sides have certainly waged war against each other in the Old World, and there was quite a bit of prejudice against Catholics in 19th century America (probably not helped by some sweeping statements by certain 19th century Popes).
I’m not trying to claim Islam is a “religion of peace”, or that Muslims have never done anything aggressive or evil for their religion (or in the name of their religion). But I really doubt any anti-Muslim prejudice in America has much to do with the Battle of Tours or even the Barbary Pirates. I suspect if you go back to the 1950s or before, any anti-Muslim prejudice in the U.S. would just be your basic prejudice towards a non-Christian foreign religion that “people don’t believe in around here”. Even when the U.S. started messing around in the Middle East to a major degree in the mid-20th Century, your average American in the street still probably would see Islam as exotic, foreign, maybe “backwards”, but not some all encompassing threat–that was the Godless Commies. (Even as recently as some of the Rambo movies or James Bond, Muslim militants were sometimes seen as brave freedom fighters battling against the Evil Soviet Empire.)
But, multiple foreign policy crises dating back to the 1960s and '70s, jumbled together in the popular perception, have taken their toll. Add in September 11, and now all of a sudden for many Americans Islam is the new Big Bad that’s taken the place of Communism.
I don’t disagree with these things, but the Western world is largely secular and divorced from ‘taking orders from the Pope’ . I think people are distrustful of Muslims because of what they’ve been growing up in. No doubt about it - Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc., were all in the “OTHER” category in the 1950s, but look at what the western world has dealt with since WWII. A Clash of Civilizations for sure.
And look at the news - Muslim Militants…Islamic Jihadists…Bombing…Gunfire…Rockets…Mumbai, London, Jerusalem, Spain, Fort Hood. It seems to be something new every month. And so people think, “Well, so and so is a Muslim from Jordan…he/she must be a sympathizer…” or more likely, “WHAT THE FUCK ARE THESE PEOPLE THINKING?!”
Muslim Americans aren’t happy with our foreign policies and our dabbling in Arab affairs, and most certainly do not agree with our relationship with Israel. So then people wonder what Muslim Americans are thinking and who they do support. And if they aren’t on ‘our’ side, they’re ‘the Other’. The not with us/against us mentality has always existed.
Not sure if I made sense. It’s about my bedtime.
also: I wanted to add that in regards to Islamic terrorism, it’s them v. the melting pot us**. It’s the one rare thing that unites so many Americans - black, white, poor, rich, Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Greek, etc.
9/11 -and I’m mentioning it re: the date & the thread title - made everyone neighbors all of the sudden. And because it was out of the blue (to us) and a shock and because it changed our lives, I’d say Islamophobia shot up because of fear. I mean, no one thinks that black people, Jews, Chinese, whatever, are going to start blowing up shit tomorrow. The university-educated investment banker could be your next Jihadist. Americans are extremely self-segregated, bigoted, and prejudiced towards each other. But with Muslims? It’s like it’s the one group everyone can agree to hate on because we have a hard time wrapping our heads around terrorism.
bleeeh
** Us being those who aren’t Muslims in this context, of course.
And if white suburban teenagers next door in Littleton can shoot up a school one April morning, well hell, what does it take for a Muslim teenager to get all mad shoot up a mall? and so forth.
It’s like people think that being a Muslim means you have a lower tolerance for civilization.
\ But with Muslims? It’s like it’s the one group everyone can agree to hate on because we have a hard time wrapping our heads around terrorism.
[/Q.UOTE]
We call this situation “prejudice” and actions based on it “bigotry.” When people bow to bigotry we call it “pandering.” It’s not “tactful” to obey the fucked up wishes of bigots.
. I think people are distrustful of Muslims because of what they’ve been growing up in. No doubt about it - Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc., were all in the “OTHER” category in the 1950s, but look at what the western world has dealt with since WWII. A Clash of Civilizations for sure.