# Groundskeeper Willie: living pun? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 18, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910 "2005-04-18T16:24:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![carterba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@carterba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carterba)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/21 "2005-04-19T00:58:24Z")
Here’s the story of how Willie became Scottish: they had this character Groundskeeper Willie, but the writers hadn’t developed him at all. Dan Castelleneta, who does the voice, asked the director what kind of voice he should do. They tried a Swedish accent, a Mexican accent, and finally settled on Scottish. So no, it does not appear that the connection was known by the writers. ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/22 "2005-04-19T07:53:20Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > Why is no-one paying the slightest bit of attention to what **SpaceDog** said, who knows what he’s talking about and nails it, and continuing with the guessing? Answering for myself, because his description of what a janitor does is no different than what a janitor in any building, school or otherwise, does in the US. I take it from the etymology I found that janitor was a “minor school official” in an _educational_ (or at least disciplinary) sense in Scotland, apparently up through the 1960s (?) (thanks **Futile Gesture** , and also for explaining the other positions). Living on the school grounds (especially a public elementary school!) is simply something you wouldn’t see in the US, and as the Willie character does that seems to lend credence to this being more than coincidence. Willie also does seem to be frequently involved in discipline. School custodians simply don’t do this in the US. **etmiller** : you “get” exactly the point I was asking about. It’s a very sophisticated reference with nuamced humor if it is a reference, but especially early on the _Simpsons_ writing was that crisp. **carterba** : cite? Seems odd to come up with a character name and then assign an ethnicity. Why even have an ethnic accent at all? The overwhelming majority of characters on the show don’t. I’m leaning pretty heavily in the direction of this being intentional now. ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/23 "2005-04-19T09:36:50Z")
> [@Crandolph](#): > > Living on the school grounds (especially a public elementary school!) is simply something you wouldn’t see in the US, and as the Willie character does that seems to lend credence to this being more than coincidence. IIRC, Willie is an undocumented immigrant (he’s deported at the end of the episode in which [Apu becomes a US citizen](http://www.snpp.com/episodes/3F20.html), but then presumably makes his way back to Springfield in time for the next episode). I don’t recall ever having seen him drive a vehicle other than the tractor – maybe he doesn’t have a driver’s license? He also seems well-prepared to head straight for the Mexican border at the first sign of any trouble in which he might be implicated. It makes me wonder if he is a bona fide employee of the school, with a paycheck and all, or if he’s just _there_. He lives in what is essentially a toolshed, his [retirement plan involves grease](http://www.snpp.com/episodes/5F20) rather than Social Security (_hmm, privatization in action, maybe he’s onto something there!_), and I don’t really remember him partaking much in the Springfield economy (do we ever see him in stores or restaurants?). In that aspect, his Scots background may make some sense – as far as sociability is concerned, he may be Springfield’s answer to the [Leopard Man of Skye](http://www.theantisocialclub.com/asc_page_036.htm). > [@Crandolph](#): > > **carterba** : cite? Seems odd to come up with a character name and then assign an ethnicity. I assume that **carterba** meant to say that the **idea** of a Janitor/Groundskeeper, not the character name, preceded the ethnicity. I’d wager dollars to [deep-fried Mars bars](http://www.news-medical.net/?id=6901) that there was never a chance of an already-named “Groundskeeper Willie” being Swedish or Mexican. Even so, **Crandolph** , I _am_ intrigued by your line of thought. It seems to me that we underestimate the writers of “The Simpsons” at our peril. Sometimes the simple answer (i.e. that it’s just coincidence) is insufficient; even Occam’s Razor gets blunt once in a while. ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/24 "2005-04-19T09:48:31Z")
Addendum to above post (a thought that somehow got removed between rough draft and hamster-submission): In “[Lemon of Troy](http://www.snpp.com/episodes/2F22.html)”, we learn that Shelbyville Elementary School also has a Scot (female in this case) in the position of Groundskeeper/Janitor. Of course, there’s also a “Speed-E-Mart” and a “Joe’s Tavern”, but it does add a data point to the “Janitor = Scot” equation. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/25 "2005-04-19T09:52:42Z")
**Crandolph,** I think the problem is that you’re looking for something that isn’t really there. As I understand it, you’re under the impression that “Janitor” has some precise meaning in British (or more specifically Scottish) schools, over and above the usual sense of custodian or caretaker. As far as I’m aware, this is not in fact the case. Whilst it’s perhaps true that there may be some differences in the exact duties between a janitor or caretaker in a typical British school and one in a typical American school, there’s no great significance in it. Certainly, the caretaker in most British schools is a figure of some authority, it’s only in the nature of any supernumary or non-academic member of staff, responsible for pupils behaviour on the school grounds outside of lessons. So, yes, in answer to the final paragraph of your original post: I think you are reading too much into it. ---
**Author:** ![Ponster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponster/32/17081_2.png) [@Ponster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponster)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/26 "2005-04-19T10:13:22Z")
If you’ve seen any of the Harry Potter movies then Argus Filch, as I understand it, is the schools caretaker/janitor. He keeps the school in working order but also has certain powers over the students in certain cases. Percy Weasley is an example of a school prefect. ---
**Author:** ![SpaceDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spacedog/32/9932_2.png) [@SpaceDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpaceDog)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/27 "2005-04-19T10:25:10Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > Why is no-one paying the slightest bit of attention to what **SpaceDog** said, who knows what he’s talking about and nails it, and continuing with the guessing? Heh. Thanks. I’ll try and expand on what I said early and what you and everyone else has added. > [@Crandolph](#): > > Answering for myself, because his description of what a janitor does is no different than what a janitor in any building, school or otherwise, does in the US. I take it from the etymology I found that janitor was a “minor school official” in an educational (or at least disciplinary) sense in Scotland, apparently up through the 1960s (?) (thanks Futile Gesture, and also for explaining the other positions). Living on the school grounds (especially a public elementary school!) is simply something you wouldn’t see in the US, and as the Willie character does that seems to lend credence to this being more than coincidence. There a few important things here. The ‘living on/near school grounds’ part – this is probably less common now, particularly in city schools, but it was an important point. Someone needs to look after the school during the holidays / weekends. Nowadays the school buildings are often used for many other things so it’s more important, but perhaps looked after by someone else. Although a typical janitor would not have any _educational_ role there was a somewhat _disciplinary_ role. Part of this was typically that you were expected to respect and obey your elders and school employees, thus the janitor was to be obeyed and respected. Secondly your jannie would be more likely to be moving around the school and grounds from place to place unlike the teachers who tended to stay in their classrooms. Hence the jannie would have more chance to shout at people for running in the coridors or whatever. Lastly the janitor role was important, without him doing various things school would probably not open in the morning. When I went to school if the heating wasn’t on in the winter then the kids were sent home, keeping the heating going was the janitors job. I’m sure this is different for different places and many of the roles assumed by a typical jannie may not have been official. Plus, it’s been a few years since I’ve been to school … So, are the Simpsons writers trying to say something with Willie ? Maybe, maybe it’s conicedence. He’s on of the few chars who’s job is permantantly associated with his name, but I’d always figured that that was a way of ‘keeping him down’ and feeding his simmering resentment. I thought his scottishness was always really coinicidental and just useful for them to mine lots of stereotypes. But as people have mentioned sometimes there’s some really subtle stuff in written into the series that we miss or just don’t get. Anyone got the DVD of the episode where he’s introduce – any commentary on it ? Wow, this is long. Sorry for rambling, it’s rare I get to post on something I vaugely know about. SD ---
**Author:** ![carterba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@carterba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carterba)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/28 "2005-04-19T12:59:16Z")
> [@Crandolph](#): > > **carterba** : cite? Seems odd to come up with a character name and then assign an ethnicity. Why even have an ethnic accent at all? The overwhelming majority of characters on the show don’t. Mike Reiss (who was co-showrunner on seasons 2 and 3) tells the story on the DVD commentary track of “Principal Charming”, which is the first episode Willie appears in. In that episode, Willie only has a few lines; I don’t think they were envisioning him as a recurring character at that point. It was only when they heard the voice Dan Castelleneta did and saw the design the animators came up with that they gave him a bigger role. Reiss says (in more or less direct answer to your question) "People think we’ve planned all this out, that we have some big idea about all the characters and stories. Well, here’s a story I like to tell: " and then launches into Willie being a completely ad hoc creation. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/29 "2005-04-19T14:07:20Z")
It seems to me like all the UKers who have responded fairly well missed what the original question was. So just to try and throw it in there again: In the US, the cleaning job at any company, school, stadium, research center, or whatever is called a “janitor.” There is no limitation to schools. The original poster though seems to think that in the UK (and particularly Scotland) that a janitor might be a position that **only** exists in schools. That is, you would never call the guy taking out the trash at a computer game company in Scotland a janitor. Is this true? Or can a janitor in the UK clean toilets for any building; not just schools? Assuming I understood **Crandolph** correctly 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/30 "2005-04-19T14:19:24Z")
I suppose some of the confusion regarding the OP might have been avoided if the question had been phrased differently, perhaps something like – Why is Groundskeeper Willie, the school janitor on _The Simpsons_, Scottish? Is it because the word “janitor” has some special significance in Scotland? ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/31 "2005-04-19T14:25:47Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > It seems to me like all the UKers who have responded fairly well missed what the original question was. So just to try and throw it in there again: > > In the US, the cleaning job at any company, school, stadium, research center, or whatever is called a “janitor.” There is no limitation to schools. > The original poster though seems to think that in the UK (and particularly Scotland) that a janitor might be a position that **only** exists in schools. That is, you would never call the guy taking out the trash at a computer game company in Scotland a janitor. Is this true? Or can a janitor in the UK clean toilets for any building; not just schools? > > Assuming I understood **Crandolph** correctly 🙂 (Another Scottish person here) I don’t know that “janitor” absolutely ONLY exists in schools, but it is certainly the only context in which I have met the term. And, yes, they would commonly live in a house built beside the school. For companies, government buildings and so on, then “caretaker” would be more ususal. And in blocks of flats, OK, apartment block if you must 🙂 then the term might either be “caretaker” or “concierge”, and no, I amnot sure why there was every any need to steal “concierge” from, but somehow it did happen. It’s a long time since I have watched “The Simpsons”, though, so I can’t shed light on their use of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/32 "2005-04-19T14:28:01Z")
> [@etmiller](#): > > I used to watch the show when I lived in Colombia, and was surprised to see that it was quite popular. Half the humor is impossible to get if you don’t live in the States, and the dubbed voices lose a lot too (_e.g._, Mayor Quimby’s accent, etc.) I guess that’s why they throw in all the slapstick. My understanding is that _The Simpsons_ for the Spanish market is dubbed in Mexico by Mexicans, but in a “generic” type of Spanish so that there’s market appeal everywhere in Latin America and possibly Europe. They even say a like of things that aren’t Mexican Spanish. Apparently there’s some danger that this will all change, because a new, non-union dubbing company has taken over, and the union voice artists don’t want to move to a non-union shop, and the non-union shop hasn’t been sufficiently infiltrated to form a union yet. This means that there could be a _massive_ change in all of the voices that more or less destroy the Simpsons. Also of interest is that the voices are the same for the 1st season as for the 10th, unlike in the USA. For the most part, the voice characterizations are pretty damn good. The Simpsons characters’ voices all have great credibility. When listing to Apu and Mrs. Apu, though, you lose the Hindi accent and some of the fun (but you get a lot of s’s so you know they’re foreign). Likewise Mayor Quimby and Willie lose their accents. And as for Bumblebee Man, well, there’s no fun at all – he’s not a stereotype in his own culture, and he speaks Spanish just like everyone else (it might be funny to make him speak English, but oh, well). There are a lot of you-must-be-American-to-understand jokes. Was it Holloween of Horrors II the other night where they were making a witch’s brew, and one of the ingredients was Paul Reiser’s “Couplehood”? And how about Mickey Rooney, whose childhood carreer spanned two decades? And so on. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/33 "2005-04-19T14:28:15Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I suppose some of the confusion regarding the OP might have been avoided if the question had been phrased differently, perhaps something like – > > Why is Groundskeeper Willie, the school janitor on _The Simpsons_, Scottish? Is it because the word “janitor” has some special significance in Scotland? No very special significance" - as someone else mentioned, the derivation is Latin, implying caretaker. It just happens that sometimes terminology is different in different areas of the U.K. ---
**Author:** ![SpaceDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spacedog/32/9932_2.png) [@SpaceDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpaceDog)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/34 "2005-04-19T14:50:01Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > In the US, the cleaning job at any company, school, stadium, research center, or whatever is called a “janitor.” There is no limitation to schools. > The original poster though seems to think that in the UK (and particularly Scotland) that a janitor might be a position that **only** exists in schools. That is, you would never call the guy taking out the trash at a computer game company in Scotland a janitor. Is this true? Or can a janitor in the UK clean toilets for any building; not just schools? Well, as **Celyn** said, the other jobs are generally referred to as caretakers, custodians, etc. I suspect janitor is a term that tends to be attached to public sector places like schools, hospitals etc. I can’t think of anywhere that’s not public sector where the job title would be ‘janitor’ but people would know the position you meant if you used that term. I suspect there may be some snobbishness here and that caretaker is supposed to sound ‘classier’ that janitor but I couldn’t say for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/35 "2005-04-19T14:56:08Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > When listing to Apu and Mrs. Apu, though, you lose the Hindi accent “Indian accent,” you mean? I don’t think there is anything called a Hindi accent. It’s actually unclear whether Apu is Bengali or Hindustani. > [@](#): > > and some of the fun (but you get a lot of s’s so you know they’re foreign). Eh? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/36 "2005-04-19T14:57:56Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > (And in blocks of flats, OK, apartment block if you must 🙂 then the term might either be “caretaker” or “concierge” In the United States, that would be the “superintendent,” or “super.” In schools, though, the superintendent is the chief administrator of all the schools in a district (a la Superintendent Chalmers). ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/37 "2005-04-19T15:16:39Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > “Indian accent,” you mean? I don’t think there is anything called a Hindi accent. It’s actually unclear whether Apu is Bengali or Hindustani. Well, I don’t know that it’s “Hindi” exactly, but there are too many different Indian accents, so I didn’t want to just say Indian. On second thought, maybe I should have! The s’s – because they don’t speak with a foreign accent in Spanish, they speak something like this: “Let’s go to the stores.” “You wants me to speaks louder.” “The babies is not eatings his food.” ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/38 "2005-04-19T15:20:18Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > It just happens that sometimes terminology is different in different areas of the U.K. Exactly. I’ve never heard ‘janitor’ used around here, in any capacity (sorry, **SpaceDog** , but that includes the public sector!) It wouldn’t surprise me if Scotland is capable of having retained a different term such as this. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/39 "2005-04-19T15:29:47Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > No very special significance" - as someone else mentioned, the derivation is Latin, implying caretaker. It just happens that sometimes terminology is different in different areas of the U.K. Bah! That was a senior moment. I mean, of course, “doorkekeper”, although it came to mean caretaker. ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910/40 "2005-04-19T16:05:45Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > It seems to me like all the UKers who have responded fairly well missed what the original question was. So just to try and throw it in there again: > > In the US, the cleaning job at any company, school, stadium, research center, or whatever is called a “janitor.” There is no limitation to schools. > The original poster though seems to think that in the UK (and particularly Scotland) that a janitor might be a position that **only** exists in schools. That is, you would never call the guy taking out the trash at a computer game company in Scotland a janitor. Is this true? Or can a janitor in the UK clean toilets for any building; not just schools? > > Assuming I understood **Crandolph** correctly 🙂 Oof, so close and yet so far… I know that there are janitors just like ours in the UK, what I’m under the impression there is (and have found confirmation for): another job called ‘janitor’ in certain schools for which we have no parallel. It just seems too much a coincidence that the word entered Scots English, was a specific position at Scottish schools, and that a character who does what appears to be that position as I understand it is doing that sort of job in an American (public elementary no less!) school is Scottish for no apparent other reason. > [@](#): > > Mike Reiss (who was co-showrunner on seasons 2 and 3) tells the story on the DVD commentary track of “Principal Charming”, … and then launches into Willie being a completely ad hoc creation. Ad hoc or not, it doesn’t explain the Scottish bit. Was he drawn as a white guy with a red beard before they determined the ethnicity? I kinda doubt it. Someone had some motivation for picking Scottish and not even leaving him as an American. There’s also the issue, as anyone who’s ever read interviews with rock musicians knows, of people misremembering a lot of things about the creative process years later. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/groundskeeper-willie-living-pun/299910.md?page=3)