# Group pitting of 17 Dopers who think Spaniards are cowards
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [March 16, 2004, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718 "2004-03-16T23:07:05Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2004, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/1 "2004-03-16T23:07:05Z")
I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw the thread started by [SlyFrog](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php) in GD: [Spanish elections: Further evidence that Europeans are pussies?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=245012&page=1). I dismissed it as trolling. The recent join date, an articulate, if factually stupid, style and [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4642434&postcount=76) :
> [@](#):
>
> I’ve already admitted that the title is deliberately provocative, there’s nothing more there. Answer the questions, state your view.
led me to think troll or possibly sock. I decided to dismiss him.
But when I came to the Pit and found that the guy who says: [“Girls, stop getting all of these tattoos, ya look skanky.”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=190946), the incomparably stupid [Muad’Dib](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), and his thread [God-Damned mother-effing coward Spaniards](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=245065), I felt sad for mankind and angry, so very, very angry when I realized that there are actually people out there that thinks this. That [Brutus](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), who thinks that anyone left of Joe McCarthy is a cryptocommie does one of his regular drive-bys\* is not surprising:
> [@](#):
>
> Those that changed there vote (or voted if they weren’t planning on doing so) due to the attacks, are the ones that deserve all of our scorn.
My first thought was that Maud’Dib’s thread was a joke, in reference to the stupidity put forward by SlyFrog . No one could seriously spout so much ignorant vitriol on this board. No one could be so utterly void of compassion as to use the tragedy in Madrid to further an agenda of fear and war mongering. I was wrong, and Muad’Dib got his ass handed to him by a number of posters, more eloquent and well read than I.
You see, even though I’m Swedish, I lived three years in Spain and consider it my second homeland. Given half a chance, I wouldn’t hesitate a second - I’d move there again tomorrow. So I think I know the Spanish, to some degree. The reason I was there was my Spanish GF and through her I got to know a lot about the country, its culture and tradition.
I doubt if there is a more proud people in Europe. And if there’s anything that can’t be said about them, it’s ‘cowards’. This is a country that was ravaged by a civil war during the 30’s, suffered through 36 years of dictatorship as a result of that war, had a dictator that let Hitler use the little Basque town of Guernica for bombing practice by Hitler’s burgeoning war machine, leading to 1.600 dead or injured. Because Spain nominally was neutral during WWII, Franco wasn’t ousted in '45 and Spain never got part of the Marshall Aid, instead being more and more isolated because of Franco’s paranoia. As late as 1970, women couldn’t have a driver’s license or passport in their own names. If they wanted to travel abroad, they would have to do so with a male guardian. Few could entertain the prospect, Spain being one of the poorest countries in Europe. Desperate for hard currency, the regime let foreign developers do pretty much what they wanted, leading to ugly resorts like [Benidorm](http://www.worldcityphotos.org/Spain/SPA-Benidorm-skyscraperpagecom1.jpg) and ravaged nature. The so called spaghetti westerns of the 60’s were not shot in Italy, but Spain, since labor was cheaper there than anywhere else around the Med. My ex GF had to start drinking watered wine at 4, because milk was too expensive.
Democracy came late to Spain, 1975, and apart from an aborted coup in '81, the country has taken great strides forward. Not yet an economic giant, it’s on its way. In '92 it managed to host both the summer Olympics and the World Expo at the same time, and I think there are few countries in Europe who’d like to undertake that.
Since so many have living memories of having suffered dictatorship, they take very dim views when elected leaders try to push them around. Aznar tried to score point by siding with the US in Iraq. Had there been WMDs and had it been a quick and decisive campaign, it might’ve worked. Maybe he actually thought that the effort there, as well as that in Afghanistan. was part of achieving something good. Maybe he thought that it would pave the way for his party in this year’s election. I can’t say what reasons he had and I doubt anyone will ever know.
But the fact is, from a seat on the U.N. Security Council, to peace keeping forces under UN command, and forces fighting alongside the other NATO members in former Yugoslavia, Desert Storm and its [Foreign Legion](http://www.lalegion.com), with the motto ‘Los novios de la muerte’ (The fiancés of death) is reputed to be harsher than its French cousin. The ‘credo’ of the Legion has this to say about death. “El morir en combate es el mayor honor. No se muere más que una vez. La muerte llega sin dolor, y el morir no es tan horrible como parece. Lo más horrible es vivir siendo un cobarde.” (To die in combat is the greatest honor. One only dies once. Death arrives without pain and to die is not so horrible as it may seem. The greatest horror is to have lived as a coward). To bolster this, the ‘credo’ about combat says: “The spirit of the legionnaire is unique and unmatched, it’s the blind and ferocious attack, to always come within bayonet range of the enemy.”
While I think the Legion engages in a lot of macho bullshit, I think it can only be formed in a country where cowardice is frowned upon, or even despised. 30 years of fighting ETA, struggling with catching up with the other European democracies, dealing with a fragmented country with lots of federalist forces and generally kicking ass is not cowardice in my book.
Yet, some Dopers presume that part or all of the Spaniards are cowards, that future terror attacks can be blamed on Spain for giving al-Qa’ida a moral boost and showing them that ‘terrorism works’.
You little frightened maggots. You don’t have a tenth of the bravery of a Spanish sheep on Valium. Because bravery comes from compassion and empathy, from the need to do something utterly unselfish because you can feel the pain of another person and know that you have to do the right thing, even though it might hurt yourself.
But you haven’t shown that compassion. Instead, you bring out the usual garbage about appeasing, about the US helping France in WWII and getting nothing back. You have shown fear of that ‘socialist spectre’ that you think is still running all over Europe, trying to manipulate and pollute pure and good American minds into giving in.
You act like someone out of ‘Sopranos’, cajoling, blackmailing, threatening and waving the biggest gun around, pistol-whipping those closest to you into submission in order to build a power base, while at the same time declaring that family and friends come first and that you’ll never give in to that Famiglia from over yonder.
So I pit you as a group. Some deserve it more than others, and in reading the two threads, I notice that some of you are retracting some things you said. But I cannot forgive you for using this tragedy to further your own power hungry, extended Monroe doctrine agenda. The culprits are, apart from SlyFrog, Brutus and Maud’Dib: [Dogface](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), [Milum](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), [Mehitabel](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), [Tabby\_Cat](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), [Starving Artist](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), [Voodoochile](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), [Capt. Caustic](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), [grienspace](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), [neuroman](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), [GoHeels](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), [Age Quod Agis](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), [RexDart](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), [KidCharlemagne](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), [Eleusis](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php).
Shame on you. Shame on you all.
\*I know the quote by Brutus is from the Pit thread, not from GD, thereby screwing up my timeline, but it serves to illustrate his posting style.
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/2 "2004-03-16T23:14:12Z")
Well said.
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### Author:  [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2004, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/3 "2004-03-16T23:19:52Z")
The Gaspode, you deserve a standing ovation.
Salaam. A
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### Author:  [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/4 "2004-03-16T23:24:20Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#):
>
> Yet, some Dopers presume that part or all of the Spaniards are cowards, that future terror attacks can be blamed on Spain for giving al-Qa’ida a moral boost and showing them that ‘terrorism works’.
Gee, maybe it is one of those pesky “opinion” things.
* * *
Fagjunk Theology: Not just for Sodomite Propagandists anymore!
---
### Author:  [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/5 "2004-03-16T23:25:47Z")
I agree. A thoroughly well written and magnificent OP.
I think the lowest of the low acts is to take cheap shots at a country while it’s going through tragedy. It reeks of cowardice. And epic double-standards too - especially from Americans who have memories so short they forget the outpouring of world-wide sympathy and military assistance after 9/11.
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### Author:  [@Rocza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocza)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/6 "2004-03-16T23:26:54Z")
> [@Boo Boo Foo](#):
>
> I agree. A thoroughly well written and magnificent OP.
>
> I think the lowest of the low acts is to take cheap shots at a country while it’s going through tragedy. It reeks of cowardice. And epic double-standards too - especially from Americans who have memories so short they forget the outpouring of world-wide sympathy and military assistance after 9/11.
I can’t say it as well as he did so I’m just cutting and pasting what Boo Boo Foo said. I agree with all of it.
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### Author:  [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/7 "2004-03-16T23:30:14Z")
Be gentle with them, for they only speak the party line. There can be no deviation.
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### Author:  [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/8 "2004-03-16T23:49:00Z")
Right on, **The Gaspode**.
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### Author:  [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2004, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/9 "2004-03-17T00:00:47Z")
I remember Spain as a tourist, and its friendly people and beautiful countryside.
I am a supporter of US involvement in Iraq, I voted for Bush, and I think that what \*\*The Gaspode \*\* has written is exactly right. They are anything but cowards. You will see Spanish troops as Peacekeepers, and you can bet that they will be at the forefront in rooting out whoever was behind this terrorism. Cowards, no. Concerned for the safety and well-being of their country, yes. Just because we do it, doesn’t mean that everyone is going to agree with us, or haven’t the whiners figured that out yet?
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### Author:  [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/10 "2004-03-17T00:01:10Z")
Well said **Gaspode** ; I praise your restrain, no cursing at all; that takes some big bronze ones considering the circunstances. 🙂
You´re da man!
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### Author:  [@torie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torie)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2004, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/11 "2004-03-17T00:03:04Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#):
>
> Because bravery comes from compassion and empathy, from the need to do something utterly unselfish because you can feel the pain of another person and know that you have to do the right thing, even though it might hurt yourself.
Words to live by.
Thank you for the education. I had no idea about Spain.
---
### Author:  [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2004, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/12 "2004-03-17T00:03:37Z")
Great OP.
I never did understand how anyone could call an entire nation of people _any one thing_, much less cowards.
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### Author:  [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/13 "2004-03-17T00:05:38Z")
Hey, group Pittings! What a bandwidth saver! Genius!
Well, I think those accusing the Spanish electorate of cowardice are out to lunch as well, but if it makes the OP feel a bit better, it’s just a bunch of people talking on a message board, and I suspect many of them have ever been out of Kansas\* for any significant amount of time.
Now, if the US administration starts slagging off the entire Spanish population…
\*metaphor, metaphor, don’t get excited
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### Author:  [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/14 "2004-03-17T00:07:11Z")
_Never_, dammit.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/15 "2004-03-17T00:17:11Z")
[Simpson’s Old Bearded Guy Voice] Now, that’s good rantin’! [/ Simpson’s Old Bearded Guy Voice]
---
### Author:  [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2004, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/16 "2004-03-17T00:20:25Z")
Don’t recall calling anyone a coward. Or saying anything whatsoever about socialism. Oh well. Sorry you feel that way, **Gaspode** , you’re usually such a sweetie. Shalom. Take it easy. I remember how angry I was right after 9/11 and some of the emotional things I said and thought so I can feel for you. I’ve said on plenty of occasions I’m a Democrat, did not vote for Bush and have no intention of doing so again, and right then I was more puzzled and sad with the Spaniards than angry.
Right? Not everyone who posted in that thread agreed with the OP’s every point. There’s two Spanish journalists who are being interviewed on the Lehrer Report right now and they say that anger over Aznar’s actions overcame their worrying about appearing to ‘vote the way the terrorists want’. I understand a bit better know.
Whether the terrorists will see it as a victory anyway–well, I think we all know the answer to that. They have no idea how democracies really work.
And from this thread it looks like we democracies are figuring it out too. 😉
---
### Author:  [@GoHeels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoHeels)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/17 "2004-03-17T00:38:41Z")
Fuck you, Gaspode.
Fuck you for including me in your list of Pittees. Fuck you for saying that I think the Spaniards are cowards because of the way they voted last Sunday. Show me where I said the Spaniards were cowards, fuckwad. Point it out to me, you brainless turd. Prove it.
I have made exactly three posts in the SDMB about the tragedy in Madrid and the subsequent Spanish election:
In my first post in the “DAMN! bombing in Madrid” thread, I wrote (sorry for lack of formatting, I’m terrible with coding):
"Has anybody heard from RedFury? I seem to recall he lived in Spain, although I’m not sure he was from Madrid.
"RedFury, I hope you’re OK. I hope you drop in on this thread to let us know you’re all right.
"My heart aches for Spain - an incredibly beautiful country with great people and a proud culture.
“I guess we are all Spaniards now.”
Yeah, I guess I’m a complete power hungry, extended Monroe doctrine-lackey for that one, huh, Gaspode?
* * *
In my second post on this subject, in the “Implications of Aznar’s party losing the election badly ?” thread, I wrote:
"Al-Qaeda will see its manipulation of the Spanish election results as a precedent, just as it saw American weakness in Somalia as a green light to go ahead with 9/11.
"I’d be very nervous getting on trains in the UK, Netherlands, Italy, Poland, etc. in the coming days, especially if elections are a few days away.
"If I’m ObL, I’m pretty damn happy today.
“Osama’s still not over the fact that 500 years ago, the Muslims lost power in Spain. That’s as much a reason for the attack as Spanish support in Iraq.”
Again, Gaspode, I dare you to point out where I said the Spanish were cowards. Show me where. Prove it right the fuck now, Gaspode. Or else you’re a fucking liar.
* * *
In my third post in the “God-Damned mother-effing coward Spaniards” thread, this is what I wrote:
“Well, I’m sure the Spanish people will see the results of the election the way they want to see it, as is their right. Such is the beauty of democracy and liberty. The people have spoken.”
"And al-Qaeda will see the results of the atrocity it perpetrated on Thursday the way it wants to see it: "Violence used to intimidate citizens in democratic countries WORKS.
"Look for repeat occurrences in UK, Netherlands, Italy, Poland, etc. I think they’ll probably try it in October in the US.
"Gotta give ObL (or whoever thought this evil act up) credit - his barbarians are succeeding admirably driving a wedge in the forces of civilization.
“Divide and conquer, divide and conquer. ObL just got one step closer to his dream today.”
I’d be lying if I said I was thrilled about the result of the Spanish elections, and I’m terribly worried that al-Qaeda will interpret the results of these elections as an encouragement to do similar atrocities in other countries aligned with the U.S. (as I said above)
But at NO POINT, in either of these three threads, did I say, or even imply, that the Spanish citizens were cowards because of the way they voted. NOWHERE AT ALL!!!
Fuck you, Gaspode. If you had any decency, you’d apologize for including me in you list of pittees.
Asshole.
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### Author:  [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2004, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/18 "2004-03-17T00:41:35Z")
To each and everyone of you posters, you do humanity a disservice with your continued existence.
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/19 "2004-03-17T00:52:23Z")
> [@gatopescado](#):
>
> Gee, maybe it is one of those pesky “opinion” things.
Everyone has a right to an _informed_ opinion.
Claiming that Spanish voters are “pussies” just because they _exercised their democratic freedom_ and voted for a government that won’t kiss George W. Bush’s ass is the second-most clueless thing I’ve read all week.
Claiming that Spanish voters are “cowards” who were cowed by the Madrid bombing shwne _Spain has been dealing with domestic terrorism far longer than the United States has_ is the \*\*first-\*\*most clueless thing I’ve read all week.
Leave it to the mindless conservative zombies to turn one nation’s tragedy into a cheap shot against our own allies. :rolleyes:
---
### Author:  [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2004, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718/20 "2004-03-17T00:54:51Z")
What a superb OP, **The Gaspode**!
I, too, hold Spain and its people near and dear to my heart. I received an e-mail yesterday from an old close friend in Madrid, who wrote:
> [@](#):
>
> We lived a very exciting day yesterday with the general election, and it seems that at least people have responded to the folly of being led into an illegal war having had their eyes opened in such a barbaric way. I am looking forward to a change in Spanish society as over the last 8 years we have sunk back into “Franquismo”. That might be a bit optimistic but we shall see.
Now, I didn’t take notes on the various contributions of the “Gang of 17” whom **The Gaspode** is pitting in the OP’s linked threads, but if any of them want to call my friend and her family cowards or terrorist-appeasers then we are _ **really** _ gonna have a smackdown.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/group-pitting-of-17-dopers-who-think-spaniards-are-cowards/234718.md?page=2)