# Grouping Words (e.g., a "murder" of crows)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grouping-words-e-g-a-murder-of-crows/88888
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [October 22, 2001, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grouping-words-e-g-a-murder-of-crows/88888 "2001-10-22T16:44:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 13
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grouping-words-e-g-a-murder-of-crows/88888/21 "2001-10-24T16:07:28Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \*
> \*\*Well, I bitched mightily about these words in “Nominate the Most Useless Words in the English Language” thread here:
>
> [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=90782](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=90782) \*\*
I’m with you 100% on that one Cranky. 90% of collective nouns are horrible whimsy, just about on a par with puns when it comes to irritating, smart-arsed word-play. They’re not clever and they’re not funny.
No-one ever uses them in everyday speech, yet you still get general knowledge quizzes expecting you to know the ‘correct’ name for a group of one legged goats at night.
A pox on the lot of them!
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### Author:  [@smoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smoke)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grouping-words-e-g-a-murder-of-crows/88888/22 "2001-10-24T16:54:22Z")
[Here’s](http://www.ojohaven.com/collectives/) a pretty good site that seems to update fairly regularly- I believe I **Duck Duck Goose** originally linked to it awhile back, but I can’t find the thread.
-j
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### Author:  [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grouping-words-e-g-a-murder-of-crows/88888/23 "2001-10-24T18:37:04Z")
> [@](#):
>
> [nitpick]
> Isn’t “rhinoceri” an improper plural? After all, the singular is “rhinoceros” and the word ultimately derives from Greek, (although it is also found in Latin) and therefore wouldn’t take the “us” to “i” plural. That, and it doesn’t end in “us” anyway. The dictionary, too, says the proper plurals are either “rhinoceros” or “rhinoceroses”
> Just wondering…
> [/nitpick]
You’re probably correct, but I don’t know. Check the **Oxford English Dictionary** , which knows all in these cases. (I don’t have one handy).
I _do_ know that **octopi** is not the plural of **octopus** , and is not even a word, in fact. I was really surprised by this, because I’d used it for years, and had heard only this as the plural. But Jerome Lettvin of MIT set me straight when I was interviewing him for my book. I happened to say “octopi”, and the conversation ground to a halt. “What did you say?” he asked. When I told him that I thought it was the correct form of the plural, he hauled out his OED and showed me the _real_ plural form.
There are two of them. The English form is the ugly and cacophonous **octopuses**. The form derived from Greek is the surprising **Octopodes**. I now use this everywhere, to show off my learnedness and to piss people off.
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### Author:  [@brachyrhynchos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brachyrhynchos)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grouping-words-e-g-a-murder-of-crows/88888/24 "2001-10-25T02:20:14Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by pulykamell \*
> [nitpick]
> Isn’t “rhinoceri” an improper plural?..
> [/nitpick]
Weird **pulykamell** , I think you are correct. That same thought had occurred to me while posting, but “crash of rhinoceri” was the way that the animal groups link had listed them. Just now, I did a quick online check on OED and did not find _rhinoceri_.
But I did find _rhinocerotic_.
\
However, I did find _rhinoceri_ online at the [Merriam-Webster site](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary), complete with audio. (Perhaps they’re wrong - they also listed _octopi_. My knowledge is too limited for me to judge. So I’ll defer to **CalMeacham**.)
Just one question - is it _octopods_ or _octopodes_? Or perhaps both?
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### Author:  [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grouping-words-e-g-a-murder-of-crows/88888/25 "2001-10-25T03:21:55Z")
It was none other than James Lipton, that most unctuous host of Bravo’s “Inside the Actor’s Studio,” who penned “An Exultation of Larks” some 10-15 years ago, kicking off a lucrative marketing craze – a craze to which I was indifferent.
But the way that stuffed shirt cravenly plies his guests with fulsome praise compels me to coin a Liptonesque neologism (if I may):
“A Lipton of jackasses.” 😃
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### Author:  [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grouping-words-e-g-a-murder-of-crows/88888/26 "2001-10-25T03:48:15Z")
“Octopodes”. With an “e”.
Merriam-Webster allows “octopi”, huh? Never thought to check them. As I say, the OED doesn’t. Ordinarily I don’t cave in to the rulings of the BBC and he OED, but I think they’re right in this case.
My friends and I, as kids, used to make up the sort of collective names. Things like:
\*\*A Pack of Card PLayers
A Great Deal of Card Players\*\*
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### Author:  [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grouping-words-e-g-a-murder-of-crows/88888/27 "2001-10-25T03:50:46Z")
> [@](#):
>
> It was none other than James Lipton, that most unctuous host of Bravo’s “Inside the Actor’s Studio,” who penned “An Exultation of Larks” some 10-15 years ago, kicking off a lucrative marketing craze – a craze to which I was indifferent.
**An Exaltation of Larks** came out a _lot_ longer ago tha 10-15 years. More like 30 years ago. No doubt about it – I know what I was doing at the time. You must’ve been indifferent longer than you thought.
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### Author:  [@brachyrhynchos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brachyrhynchos)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grouping-words-e-g-a-murder-of-crows/88888/28 "2001-10-25T04:54:27Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by brachyrhynchos \*
> Weird **pulykamell** , I think you are correct.
**pulykamell** is not weird. I, on the other hand, suck at punctuation.
Lipton, J., An Exaltation of Larks (or, The Venereal Game), Grossman Publishers and then Penguin Books, 1968/1977.
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### Author:  [@Popup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Popup)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grouping-words-e-g-a-murder-of-crows/88888/29 "2001-10-25T11:25:09Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Phlosphr \*
> \*\*I always liked a warren of rabbits. Where the heck does warren come from anyway, and don’t say “Watership Down”…? \*\*
Quoting from [Meriam-Webster](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=warren)
> [@](#):
>
> Main Entry: war·ren
> Pronunciation: 'wor-&n, 'wär-
> Function: noun
> Etymology: Middle English warenne, from Old North French, probably of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German werien to defend, protect – more at WEIR
> Date: 15th century
> 1 chiefly British a : a place legally authorized for keeping small game (as hare or pheasant) b : the privilege of hunting game in such a warren
> 2 a (1) : an area (as of uncultivated ground) where rabbits breed (2) : a structure where rabbits are kept or bred b : the rabbits of a warren
> 3 a : a crowded tenement or district b : a maze of passageways or cubbies
So, basically it’s their dwelling, even though it can also double as a collective noun (I’ve never heard it used as such though).
And 15th century is at any rate pre-“watership down”.
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### Author:  [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grouping-words-e-g-a-murder-of-crows/88888/30 "2001-10-25T22:51:18Z")
In an ancient, dusty joke, a schoolboy is asked to offer a collective noun. With no hesitation, the lad answers, “trashcan.”
–Nott, the large
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### Author:  [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grouping-words-e-g-a-murder-of-crows/88888/31 "2001-10-25T22:53:57Z")
Just as an aside, this was the theme of today’s New York Times Crossword puzzle.
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### Author:  [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grouping-words-e-g-a-murder-of-crows/88888/32 "2001-10-25T23:35:42Z")
> [@](#):
>
> **(CalMeacham)** The English form is the ugly and cacophonous **octopuses**. The form derived from Greek is the surprising **Octopodes**. I now use this everywhere, to show off my learnedness and to piss people off.
There are, of course, no higher aspirations in life.
“Ock-TOP-o-deez.” **Eck** -sellent.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2001, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grouping-words-e-g-a-murder-of-crows/88888/33 "2001-10-26T02:13:05Z")
Quoth **pulykamell** :
> [@](#):
>
> The dictionary, too, says the proper plurals are either “rhinoceros” or “rhinoceroses”
No, no, no… The plural of “Rhinoceros” is obviously “Rhinos”.
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