# Gruesome pre-modern civilisations, and rule through terror **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 7, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554 "2012-07-07T22:02:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/21 "2012-07-13T16:05:42Z")
Another fictional book, [Gates of Fire](http://www.amazon.com/Gates-Fire-Novel-Battle-Thermopylae/dp/055338368X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342195325&sr=8-1&keywords=gates+of+fire) by Steven Pressfield, gives a glimpse of life in ancient Sparta, that’s also vivid and entertaining. Can’t speak to its authenticity or the quality of the facts behind it, but I enjoyed it. ---
**Author:** ![benbo1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@benbo1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/benbo1)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/22 "2012-07-14T09:28:38Z")
In Israel, near Jerusalem is the Valley of Jezreel. Recently, there were human remains found which verified a Biblical legend; that that valley was inherited by a tribe (Canaanites? Moabites?) who regularly sacrificed children as part of the Baal worship ritual. If I remember Bible class right, it’s from this specific cult practice that the prohibition on idol-worship comes from. I believe the remains found were childrens’ bones with obvious human bite and cut marks on them. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/23 "2012-07-14T13:46:54Z")
There was a time there when people wanted to deny that cannibalism ever existed, or if it did, it was extremely rare and/or only found under exceptional conditions. Turns out it was a lot more common than anyone thought. All it really takes is a mildly hungry barbaric people asking “Why are we throwing away all this meat?” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/24 "2012-07-14T14:00:40Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > What was the worst thing Polynesians did to each other, throw someone to the sharks, or into the mouth of Kilauea? No, the worst thing would be nearly wiping out an entire pacifist people and eating many of them. Or holding captives like kine…and then eating them. > [@](#): > > How about the regime of Shaka? Shaka’s regime was pretty brutal in conquest, but no more so than most conquerors. Once tribes were assimilated into the Zulu kingdom, they were accepted as part of the new emerging polity, and the internal structure of the empire, while not a free-and-easy culture, was nevertheless stable for the, what, 70 years or so that it lasted? ---
**Author:** ![Toffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@Toffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toffe)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/25 "2012-07-14T15:02:51Z")
Thanks for all the recommendations, everyone! This is all very interesting, and all your suggestions are now on my reading list. I’m particularly looking forward to reading “House of Rain”. > [@Chimera](#): > > There was a time there when people wanted to deny that cannibalism ever existed, or if it did, it was extremely rare and/or only found under exceptional conditions. Turns out it was a lot more common than anyone thought. > > All it really takes is a mildly hungry barbaric people asking “Why are we throwing away all this meat?” I’m reminded of [Calvin and Hobbes…](http://rdcramblings.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/calvin-hobbes.gif) 🙂 Also, the book you mentioned upthread - is it [this one](http://books.google.com.br/books/about/Voyages_of_Captain_Cook.html?id=xaD-pCdbtYUC&redir_esc=y)? **MrDibble** , got any suggestions for further reading, on both Polynesians and Zulus? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/26 "2012-07-14T15:29:11Z")
> [@Toffe](#): > > **MrDibble** , got any suggestions for further reading, on both Polynesians and Zulus? My first intro to the Maori/Moriori cannibalism stuff was _Guns, Germs and Steel,_ by Jared Diamond. As for the Zulus, hard to say - Morris’s _The Washing of the Spears_ is OK, if dry. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/27 "2012-07-14T16:03:38Z")
Incidentally, for a good book on cannibalism, check out [Flesh and Blood](http://www.amazon.com/Flesh-Blood-History-Cannibal-Complex/dp/0316837059/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1342281599&sr=8-8&keywords=reay+tannahill) by Reay Tannahill. Fascinating stuff, and well written, too. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/28 "2012-07-14T16:54:16Z")
> [@Toffe](#): > > Also, the book you mentioned upthread - is it [this one](http://books.google.com.br/books/about/Voyages_of_Captain_Cook.html?id=xaD-pCdbtYUC&redir_esc=y)? That’s the one. I bought my copy in a used book store. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/29 "2012-07-14T17:32:06Z")
> [@Toffe](#): > > Thanks for all the recommendations, everyone! This is all very interesting, and all your suggestions are now on my reading list. I’m particularly looking forward to reading “House of Rain”. Keep in mind that the author is tracing the entire migration route of the Anasazi people across the Colorado Plateau and then over the escarpment into the forested part of Arizona. Only one chapter actually deals with tribal warfare, sacrifice and cannibalism. He doesn’t dwell on it, but rather presents it as archaeological fact. Still, he’s a very descriptive writer, and his verbal pictures of these arid areas and their inhabitants are excellent. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/30 "2012-07-16T02:12:35Z")
The Moche were pretty extreme: > **[Moche](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moche)** > > Moche can refer to: > [@](#): > > by Wikipedia > Both iconography and the finds of human skeletons in ritual contexts seem to indicate that human sacrifice played a significant part in Moche religious practices. These rites appear to have involved the elite as key actors in a spectacle of costumed participants, monumental settings and possibly the ritual consumption of blood. While some scholars, such as Christopher B. Donnan and Izumi Shimada, argue that the sacrificial victims were the losers of ritual battles among local elites, others, such as John Verano and Richard Sutter, suggest that the sacrificial victims were warriors captured in territorial battles between the Moche and other nearby societies. Excavations in plazas near Moche huacas have found groups of people sacrificed together and the skeletons of young men deliberately excarnated, perhaps for temple displays.[4] > > The Moche may have also held and tortured the victims for several weeks before sacrificing them, with the intent of deliberately drawing blood. Verano believes that some parts of the victim may have been eaten as well in ritual cannibalism.[4] The sacrifices may have been associated with rites of ancestral renewal and agricultural fertility. I have seen some people claim that the victims’ skeletons were found with coproliths in the mouths of the skulls. To me, that suggests that the motive was political terrorism, rather than religious zeal. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/31 "2012-07-16T05:59:42Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Let’s face it. In the ancient world, death was all around. You had less than a 50-50 chance of surviving to adulthood (often much less) and could pretty much die at any time from disease, accidents, other people, etc. > > So how do you honestly threaten people who live their entire lives surrounded by death? By making that death as horrific as possible. It might work even better today. Suppose some homegrown media-savvy political fringe started doing widespread home invasion torture murders, taking advantage of popular images of extreme violence and the innocence of victims. Think the Manson Family with a manifesto and a web presence. They could conceivably bring the country to its knees in fear and mistrust before the feds mowed them down. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/32 "2012-07-16T11:18:59Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > The Punic (Phoenician) religion practiced a form of human sacrifice so unspeakably awful > that I do not even wish to relate the details here. Existence of the ritual is corroborated by > the Bible, by Greco-Roman sources, by the early Christian writer Tertullian, and by modern > archaeology. Here are modern two sources for the topic: > > [_Carthaginian Religion_ by Roy Decker](http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/uc_decker_carthrel2.htm) > > _Cult and Belief in Punic and Roman Africa_ by Brent D. Shaw > > The Revisionist historical faction contests the reality of Punic human sacrifice, but that is > only in keeping with its spurious lock-step agenda, which automatically dismisses unfavorable > depiction of non-Western culture, while never failing to depict Western culture in the worst > conceivable light. I ran into one of these Revisionist zealots on the IMDB when I happened to mention the Carthaginians’ practice of infant sacrifice. Hannibal himself couldn’t have rushed more fiercely to the Punic defense, as he launched into a diatribe against the Roman and other sources. One thing he left well alone, of course, was the archaeological evidence, although I suspect if I’d mentioned it I’d only have received a torrent of bitter invective about the West and their perfidious archaeologists. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/33 "2012-07-16T12:07:44Z")
I used to doubt the veracity of (or at least the extent of) Carthaginian child sacrifice (probably on these boards, even) and considered it just Roman blood libel, but the actual evidence is rather telling. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/34 "2012-07-16T12:10:35Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > They’re works of fiction, not the scholarly non-fiction that I think you’re looking for, but are by all accounts well-researched and will give you a feeling for general life during the time. Take a look at Gary Jenning’s [Aztec](http://www.amazon.com/Aztec-Gary-Jennings/dp/0765317508/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342107636&sr=8-1&keywords=aztec) and [The Journeyer](http://www.amazon.com/The-Journeyer-Gary-Jennings/dp/0765323494/ref=la_B000APY7OA_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1342107735&sr=1-2). _ **Aztec** _ deals with, well, the Aztecs while _ **The Journeyer** _ is a fictional retelling of Marco Polo’s adventures and paints a picture of the Khan’s court. If you can get past the Gary Stu-ness of the main character in each book (seriously; both main characters are nothing so much as epic wish-fulfillment), they’re pretty entertaining and definitely vivid. A good beach read. Take them with a grain of salt, probably, but I think they give a good flavor of how life was actually lived during the times (for a nobleman, to be sure, but it’s better than nothing). For Marco Polo, wouldn’t it make more sense to read [the original](http://www.amazon.com/Travels-Marco-Venetian-Classic-Reprint/dp/1440089434/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1342440569&sr=8-4&keywords=marco+polo)? I used to love it as a child; later I made a game of trying to place the stories and descriptions (many of them second or third-hand) on an Atlas. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/35 "2012-07-16T12:29:28Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > For Marco Polo, wouldn’t it make more sense to read [the original](http://www.amazon.com/Travels-Marco-Venetian-Classic-Reprint/dp/1440089434/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1342440569&sr=8-4&keywords=marco+polo)? I used to love it as a child; later I made a game of trying to place the stories and descriptions (many of them second or third-hand) on an Atlas. The original is a great story but it would probably be better described as “inspired by the memoirs of” than a historically accurate travelogue. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/36 "2012-07-16T12:32:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I used to doubt the veracity of (or at least the extent of) Carthaginian child sacrifice (probably on these boards, even) and considered it just Roman blood libel, but the actual evidence is rather telling. Years ago, a rather shallow Houston TV personality surprised me with his story of visiting Tunisia. He saw the site of Carthage & recounted a bit of ancient history. Then he visited a cemetery filled with victims of WWII battles. And waxed rather thoughtful about any civilization willing to sacrifice so many of its young. Yes, the ancients could be a bloody lot. But, let’s not forget the wars & genocides of the century just past–even in the heart of civilized Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/37 "2012-07-16T14:39:10Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > The original is a great story but it would probably be better described as “inspired by the memoirs of” than a historically accurate travelogue. And a rewrite by someone 7 centuries later is better how? They’re basically doing what I did with my Atlas. ---
**Author:** ![Ele\_the\_Stoic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4bbf92/32.png) [@Ele\_the\_Stoic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ele_the_Stoic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/38 "2012-07-17T05:09:21Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Massacring a defeated enemy’s tribe wasn’t cruelty for cruelty’s sake, it was simply the only way to make a victory final; make your enemies extinct or reduced to a handful of scattered survivors too few to retaliate. This is precisely why slavery was so ubiquitous in ye olden times. The Romans couldn’t afford to let an entire nation live undisturbed on the fringe while demanding tribute, they had to destabilize the tribes and take hostages, as well as punishing those who resisted. The Greeks would take slaves from rival city states on occasion (you hear mixed sentiments about using fellow Greeks as slaves), to reduce their power to make war. The Mamluks and Jannisaries were slave, usually Christian soldiers who would be taken as children to keep the religious and ethnic minorities weak enough to protect against rebellion. Subsistence agriculture isn’t very labor intensive, it’s only on large scale farms that extra hands become necessary, so it’s likely slavery first evolved as a form of punishment and stratification. > [@Toffe](#): > > I’d guess it’s because the list is about terrifying civilisations, while the Roman empire, once it really got going, had a bit more of a carrot-and-stick approach. While you definitely didn’t want to end up fighting a war with Rome, being within the empire was pretty good - a fairly effective guarantee of peace and security, enhanced opportunities for trade, etc. Honestly, that sort of eliminates the Mongols as well. Genghis Khan was well known for his generosity and patience, he only slaughtered everyone when he was, essentially, given reason to. Terrifying civilizations are only going to be terrifying when compared with others. The Celts didn’t go around lopping their own heads off, and the Aztecs preferred to use war captives as sacrifice when available as opposed to their own people. That said, you could check out some of the Mayan bloodletting rituals. Not quite on the same level as the Aztecs, but they would, for example, pierce their tongues and pull cordage laced with spikes through the wound to make the blood flow faster. You should also look into the Spanish of the High and Late Middle Ages - specificully during and after the Reconquista and Inquisition. > [@colonial](#): > > The Punic (Phoenician) religion practiced a form of human sacrifice so unspeakably awful > that I do not even wish to relate the details here. > [@benbo1](#): > > In Israel, near Jerusalem is the Valley of Jezreel. Recently, there were human remains found which verified a Biblical legend; that that valley was inherited by a tribe (Canaanites? Moabites?) who regularly sacrificed children as part of the Baal worship ritual. If I remember Bible class right, it’s from this specific cult practice that the prohibition on idol-worship comes from. I believe the remains found were childrens’ bones with obvious human bite and cut marks on them. > [@aldiboronti](#): > > I ran into one of these Revisionist zealots on the IMDB when I happened to mention the Carthaginians’ practice of infant sacrifice. Hannibal himself couldn’t have rushed more fiercely to the Punic defense, as he launched into a diatribe against the Roman and other sources. One thing he left well alone, of course, was the archaeological evidence, although I suspect if I’d mentioned it I’d only have received a torrent of bitter invective about the West and their perfidious archaeologists. You’re all referring to the Tophet, and the evidence honestly _is_ shaky at best, and not because of any “agenda”, but to the near absence of unambiguous evidence. Diodorus Siculus is widely considered a propagandist who did plenty to make everyone seem inferior to the Greeks (his target audience), the bible was arguably seeking justification for demonizing the Canaanites as heathens (and never mentions a tophet in Carthage, but specifies Canaan), Tertullian lived hundreds of years after the sack of Carthage and absorption of its former territories and Romanization of its people (and as a dedicated Christian, he was not going to try and paint a pagan religion in a good light) and modern archeology says nothing more than that the children were cremated. You could just as easily assume all Greeks were victims of the tophet, because they were cremated as well. Clietarchus allegedly mentions the practice as well, and while he was relatively contemporary, he’s also accused of embellishment and outright fabrication by writers like Cicero. Not to mention his work is lost, and only known through references, so we can’t even be sure he _did_ say it. Archaeology doesn’t tell us how cremated remains died or if they were alive when they started burning, and as far as I know, there’s no proof the children weren’t stillborn, or died due to disease / famine. There are bones of fetuses, even - how were they sacrificed? Did they perform cesarian sections to extricate the unborn child to sacrifice? People also make much ado about the animal bones mixed in with human remains, even though they can be explained. The children, if they were considered specially pure as children are considered today, may have been “returned” to Ba’al and Tanit like a sacrifice without being alive, like sky burials returning the deceased person’s body back to nature. The ones with the agendas were the contemporary Romans like Scipio Africanus during the Punic wars, who didn’t make any descriptions of the Tophet or child sacrifice. And there’s no contemporary Carthaginian or Phoenician descriptions of the event / ritual, even though they most certainly would have seen nothing wrong with it, since they were the ones doing it. Why are there only foreign sources completely disconnected with Carthaginian culture and sources separated by hundred of years or more? There are no primary sources. Go ahead and consider me a revisionist zealot if you guys want, and I grant the Phoenicians certainly _could_ have practiced child sacrifice, all I’m saying is that the evidence is not nearly as abundant or clear cut as you guys seem to think. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/39 "2012-07-17T07:46:22Z")
> [@Ele\_the\_Stoic](#): > > That said, you could check out some of the Mayan bloodletting rituals. Not quite on the same level as the Aztecs, but they would, for example, pierce their tongues and pull cordage laced with spikes through the wound to make the blood flow faster. Oh, they didn’t stop at _tongues_… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/40 "2012-07-17T17:44:03Z")
> [@Ele\_the\_Stoic](#): > > You’re all referring to the Tophet, and the evidence honestly _is_ shaky at best, and not because of any “agenda”, but to the near absence of unambiguous evidence. Interestingly, “tophet” (תופת) is Hebrew for “inferno”, both in the sense of a great fire, and of Hell. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554.md?page=3)