# Gruesome pre-modern civilisations, and rule through terror **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 7, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554 "2012-07-07T22:02:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/41 "2012-07-17T18:59:22Z")
Since the OP specified ‘pre-1850’, I’ll go with this: [http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/american-colonists-practice-scalping](http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/american-colonists-practice-scalping) (better or worse than smallpox blankets? you make the call…) ---
**Author:** ![Toffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@Toffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toffe)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/42 "2012-07-19T23:56:16Z")
Thanks again, everyone; this has all been great. **Nava** , I’ve already read Marco Polo’s _Travels_. Good fun. I found it amusing how the author kept trying to make a picaresque adventure story, but Marco wouldn’t let him 😛 **mbh** , thanks for the tip on the Moche, I’d never heard of them before. I’ll enjoy going through those cites in the Wiki article. **Ele the Stoic** , thanks for the info - might you have any particular book/ebook recommendations on Mayan rituals and Ottoman slavery? Specific tips on reading about Spain would be appreciated too - I did a fair bit of reading on the Reconquista in university, but not much on the inquisition or oppression. (I read Spanish fluently, if that makes a difference) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/43 "2012-07-20T01:36:07Z")
I, too, would highly recommend Gary Jennings’s _Aztec_. Although a novel, it’s very well-researched and gives you a great, very entertaining look at Aztec society from top to bottom. Yes, it was in many ways a brutal culture, but Jennings makes the points that far fewer died in Aztec warfare than died in European wars of the day, that they had amazing art and architecture, and that Tenochtitlan, their capital, was much bigger, cleaner and better-run than any European city at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Imago](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/85e7bf/32.png) [@Imago](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imago)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/44 "2012-07-20T02:11:46Z")
What about the Norse? I don’t know about reading material, but pretty sure the Norse practiced group human sacrifices to at least two of their gods. It’s possible some towns among the ancient Celts did too, but again, I don’t know what reading material you’d look for to confirm or deny it. I’m sure it’s out there because this is a subject of hot debate for some folks. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/45 "2012-07-20T02:41:58Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Years ago, a rather shallow Houston TV personality surprised me with his story of visiting Tunisia. He saw the site of Carthage & recounted a bit of ancient history. Then he visited a cemetery filled with victims of WWII battles. And waxed rather thoughtful about any civilization willing to sacrifice so many of its young. > > Yes, the ancients could be a bloody lot. But, let’s not forget the wars & genocides of the century just past–even in the heart of civilized Europe. Why am I imagining Wayne Dolcefino here? I’d have said Marvin, but he wasn’t exactly shallow, just flamboyant and strange. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/46 "2012-07-20T03:01:37Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > The Revisionist historical faction contests the reality of Punic human sacrifice, but that is only in keeping with its spurious lock-step agenda, which automatically dismisses unfavorable depiction of non-Western culture, while never failing to depict Western culture in the worst conceivable light. What was non-Western about the Carthaginians? They _were_ west of Rome y’know ;). Seriously though, kinda seems hard to cut the culture that ultimately gave us our alphabet out of the western tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/47 "2012-07-20T18:11:28Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > While the Aztecs have gotten the lion’s share of press concerning sacrifice, torture, beheading and cannibalism, there is a wealth of evidence that these same practices were carried out by the Pueblo dwellers (the so-called Anasazi) who inhabited the American Southwest from about 700-1200 AD. This is a very touchy subject among the Hopi, who are the direct descendants of these people. That aside, the physical evidence is there: human bones that show the marks of butchering, skulls that show death from blows to the back of the skull, skulls that show clear evidence of decapitation, mortar & pestle type vessels with bits of ground finger bones in them, etc. Some thinking is that these practices were imported through trade contact with Aztec people. > > There is also evidence of warfare within the Puebloan culture, with archaeological sites revealing rooms with entire families showing signs of violent and sudden death. I would suggest reading _House of Rain_, by Craig Childs. It’s very informative and written so a layman can stay awake while reading it. > > A side note: the term Anasazi is distasteful and offensive to the Hopi, as it is a Navajo word meaning, roughly, ‘enemy ancestors’. It’s doubtful that it will ever fall out of common use, however. To be fair, though, the consensus appears to be that the massacres were _not_ an ongoing part of Anasazi culture, but rather the relics of their somewhat apocalyptic collapse. Or at least, that’s the impression I got from reading Child’s book, which was fun. In some places, sites were abandoned more or less orderly - in others, accompanied by massacre, burning and cannibalism. But it isn’t the case that massacre and cannibalism were typical of the culture, unlike say the Aztecs. ---
**Author:** ![Ele\_the\_Stoic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4bbf92/32.png) [@Ele\_the\_Stoic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ele_the_Stoic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/48 "2012-07-20T23:04:56Z")
**La Inquisición sin máscara** by Antonio Puigblanch is an old old book (it’s from the 1810’s), so you can find it on Google. It’s, if I recall correctly, one of the first true scholarly books on the subject. I haven’t read it through myself, just bits and pieces referenced by other books (I don’t read Spanish), but what I recall was pretty good. **The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision** by Henry Kamen, is a more modern take on it. It’s revisionist, so it won’t be as “blood and guts” so to speak, but it’s still a good read. It tries to put things in the proper context, understanding the nature of Spanish society at the time. Mamluk and Ottoman slavery however, is typically relegated to footnotes in other books about the period. Most of the books specifically dealing with the topics are in Turkish or Arabic, neither of which I read, so I can’t give you any recommendations there. For the Maya, there’s [this](http://miami.academia.edu/TraciArdren/Papers/1183552/Empowered_Children_in_Classic_Maya_Sacrificial_Rites) paper that discusses child sacrifice, another article **New perspectives on human sacrifice and ritual body treatment in ancient Maya society** on [Springerlink](http://www.springerlink.com/content/r04867k51607606m/), [Capture and Sacrifice At Palenque](http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publications/RT04/Capture.pdf), and [Ritual Blood Sacrifice among the Ancient Maya](http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publications/RT02/Joralemon1974.pdf) are all very interesting reads. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/49 "2012-07-20T23:25:48Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > What was non-Western about the Carthaginians? They _were_ west of Rome y’know ;). Yeah, but their [cradle culture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia) was from well east of Rome. I guess those ancient peoples were colonizing like crazy. Carthage was to Phoenicia what Ionia was to Greece, it seems, although in opposite directions. ---
**Author:** ![WhyWhyWhy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whywhywhy/32/7539_2.png) [@WhyWhyWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyWhyWhy)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/50 "2012-07-22T07:20:25Z")
Jeez! Remind me not to bitch about the return on my money market plans! ---
**Author:** ![Toffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@Toffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toffe)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/51 "2012-07-22T12:04:52Z")
**Ele the Stoic** , excellent links, cheers! > [@Imago](#): > > What about the Norse? I don’t know about reading material, but pretty sure the Norse practiced group human sacrifices to at least two of their gods. Well, I’ve seen references to Norse human sacrifice - “blood-eagling” and such - but was never able to track it back to any really concrete records or archaeological evidence, at least not for the Viking period. If it happened at all, my impression is that it was so limited that it’s hardly worth mentioning. Beyond which, Norse domestic society wasn’t scary at all, but actually very liberal - women had considerable rights, literacy may well have been very high, and they went off to found IIRC the world’s longest-running democracy in Iceland. The churchmen on the British Isles and in France who saw their treasuries plundered gave them a bad rap 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/52 "2012-07-22T12:10:26Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Since the OP specified ‘pre-1850’, I’ll go with this: [http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/american-colonists-practice-scalping](http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/american-colonists-practice-scalping) > > (better or worse than smallpox blankets? you make the call..) I don’t know where they get that stuff about “usually causing death.” Scalping alone often _didn’t_ cause death. Imagine the special humiliation of being scalped and left alive. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/53 "2012-07-22T18:38:30Z")
> [@Ele\_the\_Stoic](#): > > **La Inquisición sin máscara** by Antonio Puigblanch is an old old book (it’s from the 1810’s), so you can find it on Google. It’s, if I recall correctly, one of the first true scholarly books on the subject. I haven’t read it through myself, just bits and pieces referenced by other books (I don’t read Spanish), but what I recall was pretty good. There is a contemporaneous and scanned English translation [available for free on Google](http://books.google.com/books?id=W-Lce7JA1gEC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false). I just downloaded it to my phone from the Google Play store for some “light” reading on-the-go. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Imago](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/85e7bf/32.png) [@Imago](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imago)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/54 "2012-07-22T19:31:28Z")
> [@Toffe](#): > > Well, I’ve seen references to Norse human sacrifice - “blood-eagling” and such - but was never able to track it back to any really concrete records or archaeological evidence, at least not for the Viking period. If it happened at all, my impression is that it was so limited that it’s hardly worth mentioning. Beyond which, Norse domestic society wasn’t scary at all, but actually very liberal - women had considerable rights, literacy may well have been very high, and they went off to found IIRC the world’s longest-running democracy in Iceland. The churchmen on the British Isles and in France who saw their treasuries plundered gave them a bad rap 😛 Huh. Makes sense that it would be small or nonexistent, but I could _swear_ I saw a half-decent documentary a while back which briefly mentioned mass hangings. I’m annoyed to no end when the Aztecs are portrayed as so terrible and bloodthirsty and blahdy blah blah, so I’d love to know more who did what where in regards to gore in the ancient world. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/55 "2012-07-22T21:54:11Z")
> [@Toffe](#): > > Well, I’ve seen references to Norse human sacrifice - “blood-eagling” and such - but was never able to track it back to any really concrete records or archaeological evidence, at least not for the Viking period. If it happened at all, my impression is that it was so limited that it’s hardly worth mentioning. The blood-eagle killing was for _traitors_, not as a sacrifice to gods, and as noted if it happened it didn’t happen often. You had to have been unusually nasty to warrant that, as it would have been much simpler to simply hack off your head. The human-sacrifice-for-Norse-gods was supposedly in honor of Odin/Wotan/however you spell his name who according to myth self-sacrificed via hanging on the World Tree for nine days and nights at one point. _Allegedly_ the blood sacrifice involved hanging men and horses on a sacred tree at the temple in Uppsala, Sweden, or hanging nine males of every species. I’ve yet to see any really solid proof of that, but then I admit I haven’t looked particularly hard for any. It might also be associated with another Norse god, but if so I don’t know which one. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/56 "2012-07-22T23:13:17Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The human-sacrifice-for-Norse-gods was supposedly in honor of Odin/Wotan/however you spell his name who according to myth self-sacrificed via hanging on the World Tree for nine days and nights at one point. _Allegedly_ the blood sacrifice involved hanging men and horses on a sacred tree at the temple in Uppsala, Sweden, or hanging nine males of every species. And to think it was all due to a misunderstanding of the phrase “Odin was hung long”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554/57 "2012-07-23T07:05:25Z")
The Norse hanging sacrifice (if it happened) was one kind of [Blót](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bl%C3%B3t) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gruesome-pre-modern-civilisations-and-rule-through-terror/627554.md?page=2)