# Grumpy old luddites around here
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [April 6, 2025, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701 "2025-04-06T16:01:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2025, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/41 "2025-04-06T19:11:58Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#):
>
> > [@What\_Exit](#):
> >
> > building our own computers was a fun hobby for a while. I think I gave it up around 2010
>
> Earlier than that for me. I was there in the days of 8 bit micros like Z80 and 6502, where it was possible for one person to completely understand both the hardware and software of the system.
>
> Those days are gone forever, over a long time ago…
Yes. Quite honestly, the last computer that I completely understood – hardware, software, everything, inside out – was the DEC PDP-8. Which had a really brilliant architecture, the ultimate example of how to make the most of so little. That was around the time that computers then gradually started to become beyond the capacity of any single person to grasp all the relevant technologies, even though many pretended they could – and still do – and continue to make asinine decisions about what “progress” is supposed to mean.
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### Author:  [@LivingGhost371](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LivingGhost371)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2025, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/42 "2025-04-06T19:34:07Z")
Normally I stay away from the PIt, but I couldn’t resist this comment: Turning your stove on remotely from an app- what could possibly go wrong???
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### Author:  [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2025, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/43 "2025-04-06T19:36:16Z")
This happy old Luddite identifies as such because an awful lot of “innovation” is done to make more profit for the corporation (e.g., replacing metal gears with plastic ones in the food processor, meaning it lasts maybe 3 years and not 20 like its predecessor), makes someone else’s life easier but makes mine more difficult (e.g. new software that makes my tasks more cumbersome but saves the boss a step or two, even though I do the tasks daily and he looks at it all twice a year), or takes stuff out of my reach and control and gives it to the corporation (e.g., storing stuff on the cloud instead of on my machine) or takes my stuff and turns it into “input” for someone else’s product, (e.g. some AI stuff.)
That older people notice this more is due the fact that younger were literally born to the new shit and don’t know any better and that identifying with whatever is “new and exciting!” gives them the illusion that they are cool and with it and “new and exciting!” themselves. As Aristotle noted, the youth have hope and enthusiasm and that is why they are easily gulled.
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### Author:  [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2025, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/44 "2025-04-06T20:24:38Z")
> [@Babale](#):
>
> The only thing less original than AI art is your lots’ recycled rants about AI art.
From Mad Magazine:
“My KID could paint that!”
“Yeah, and he could probably say something more original than that old cliché, too!”
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### Author:  [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2025, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/45 "2025-04-06T20:58:39Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#):
>
> But that was because computers back then _needed_ every upgrade they could get to move from glacially slow to sloth slow and the hardware didn’t exist yet to make it run adequately. But computers reached the point of adequate for most things without additional changes years ago.
Yeah, ain’t that the truth. The upgrade/replacement part cycle of owning a computer has gotten so much better. I mentioned in another thread hunting for a cpu cooler replacement fan at the now defunct Fry’s long ago. I used to have to replace fans on my loud, ever-humming desktop constantly. Now my computer is whisper quiet, only spinning up when under heavy load driving a game. My pricey, sorta cutting-edge system from late 2018 is not even within spitting distance of cutting edge now. Yet so far it can still handle anything thrown at it (at usually max setting no less) and I haven’t needed to upgrade a single component. It should even take Windows 11 just fine once I bother digging into the BIOS to enable TPM 2.0.
Considering how often I was upgrading or replacing outdated video cards, dying hard drives, undersized power sources and a billion balky cooling fans back in the day, this seems almost miraculous.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2025, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/46 "2025-04-06T21:04:07Z")
I did have a hard drive die once, that was tragic at the time. I had a power supply fail. I never had a fan die. Early Audio cards were crappy and in the 90s cheaper Ethernet Card were often crappy. Video Cards were pretty simple and something I more or less scheduled.
I mostly remember printer issues and printer driver issues as the most problems I dealt with.
My 2014 Laptop, I plan to retire. I barely ever use it anyway, so no reason to struggle to upgrade it. I have a crappy little Best Buy deal, lite-weight low powered laptop that is already Win 11 and that will have to do.
I live on my Robust PC and spend time on my little MicroPC in the Game Room.
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2025, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/47 "2025-04-06T23:43:00Z")
Don’t call me grumpy.
I am not looking forward to getting a new MacBook to replace a going-on 5-year-old model which seems determined to obsolete itself by needing reboots more and more often to stay onliine. A new one comparable to what I have costs $999 (they could have charged $1,000 and added a truly wonderful new feature). All I need is a way to get online, write my weekly Substack and download images and memes with which to annoy the unrighteous on social media, plus do a bit of basic photo editing.
An Apple tech fixed a problem I was having with it two years ago and noted that due to its age (it was a doddering 3-year-old back then) I probably wouldn’t want to bother having a non-functioning USB-C port replaced. The letter “A” fell off the A button awhile back; it’s a miracle I’ve been able to keep using the machine.
/s
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### Author:  [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2025, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/48 "2025-04-07T01:32:25Z")
T lest the whole “” button didn’t fll off. T would hve been more wkwrd sitution.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2025, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/49 "2025-04-07T02:13:26Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#):
>
> > [@Thing.Fish](#):
> >
> > I’m sick of the people who pipe up whenever anyone posts AI art to snark about how “that’s not really art, since you didn’t draw it with your own hands, and therefore you should be shamed for posting it”. Piss right off with that.
>
> You should be ashamed of posting AI-generated art because it is uniformly crap. It all has a similar, overly jumbled look or sound with no real sense of composition, coherence, or narrative, and aside from depriving actual human artists of work when used in a commercial application, it has been trained using the intellectual property of artists without compensation (and no, feeding an AI model digitized training data is not at all the same thing as a human artist looking at or listening to influential artists before them and interpreting their works in a way that stimulates human creativity), notwithstanding the enormous energy and ecological resources that go into the brute force training of generative AI models to produce a dull facsimile of what a human brain creates on ~25 watts.
>
> ‘Artificial intelligence’ has valid purposes but replacing human-made creativity is not a good application even if current generative AI were any good at it, which it isn’t. The creative impulse and the legitimate industry that it drives to produce novel art, music, film, literature, philosophy, science, et cetera is really what fundamentally distinguishes us from other animals; using ‘AI’ as a tool to facilitate the creation of good art is a worthy application, but supplanting or replacing it is not, especially when it is just atheistically so absolutely terrible and just serves to erode commercial support for and appreciation of human-created art.
>
> Stranger
As someone (I can’t remember who) put it: _I want AI to clean my house so l can have time to create; I don’t want AI to create for me so I have time to clean my house._
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2025, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/50 "2025-04-07T02:35:09Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> t seems like there have been an inordinate number of “I’m old, I don’t want to change, and computers are expensive!” posts around here. Even when the computers and software in question are actually quite ancient and the replacements are cheap by nearly any yardstick.
So cheap that every poster who regularly posts on the SDMB can afford them? If they are that would be news to many of us.
> [@bump](#):
>
> When did we get so old and fuddy-duddyish? Everyone knows computers aren’t like toasters; you can’t buy them and expect them to run forever without periodically upgrading the software and hardware.
I haven’t seen anybody complaining about this. I have seen plenty of posts complaining about required upgrades being _unnecessary_.
> [@bump](#):
>
> Moaning about $129 MS Office upgrades seems backward to me; that’s _CHEAP_ today; that’s what it cost 20 years ago IIRC. Or even more maybe.
I haven’t seen anybody complain about that either. I have however seen many posters complain about the shift from the ‘user pays for the software once’ to ‘user must pay for the software again every year’ model. As we all know, it used to be you paid once, got permission to use the software and that was the end of the transaction. Paying for a yearly subscription to use the software is a new development.
> [@bump](#):
>
> Trying to keep a computer with Win 7 going because you don’t want to spend $150-200 on a Chromebook or something and undergo the _minor_ changes to use it is absurd.
That would be absurd. I haven’t seen any posts saying that either. I have seen posts by posters with a very limited income saying that what many posters consider “cheap” is beyond their budget.
> [@bump](#):
>
> I’m just disappointed. I don’t like seeing the board descend into grumpy old man (or woman) territory, and a lot of the technological threads and comments seem like the canaries in the coal mine.
Again, I have seen a lot of posts from Dopers who obviously know computers attempting to help other Dopers update software so they can stay on the SDMB. I bought a laptop this January. I got guidance from my sister in law who is indeed an IT geek. It cost me less than $300. I have been working full time for a few years now. So, yes that was something I could easily afford.
I got my previous laptop while I was dependent on social security disability, food stamps, a monthly box of food from the Jewish Relief Agency, loans from relatives just to pay rent, electricity, phone and gas bills each month. When my computer showed signs of dying, I panicked. Besides social media, any place I might want to apply for a job had gone to online applications only. I didn’t have a smart phone then. Friends helped me shop around. A new computer would cost about $500. That was at least $400 more than I could afford at the time. My Gobhi contributed most of the money. She asked my friends to contribute what they could. I got a new laptop. Without their charity, I would have lost internet access entirely.
I gather some posters are in similar financial situations. Yes, $300 is a great price for this laptop. I had $300 to spend. Not everybody does.
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2025, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/51 "2025-04-07T03:20:10Z")
So I take objection to the term Luddite, I mean I am grumpy old Luddite. But Luddites were never fearful ignoramuses instinctively objecting to all new technology just out fear of change. They had legitimate objections to the technology in question, just like me.
I strenuously object to the idea that has become prevalent in technology thanks to smart phones, where you don’t really own the computer you paid good money for. Specifically you don’t get to install the software you want without permission from your tech overlords, you don’t get to even start up your computer without registering your identity with those tech overlords and connecting to the internet to make sure you are in good standing. If not upgrading my OS is what’s required to avoid that, that’s a perfectly reason price to pay.
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### Author:  [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2025, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/52 "2025-04-07T03:20:22Z")
> [@Ellecram](#):
>
> I am not grumpy about it. I adjust and move on the best I can.
I think it’s fine to be both. Grumpy, as long as you’re willing to adjust and move on when needed.
BUT I feel so bad for some of us curmudgeons here who keep shooting themselves in the foot!
I’ve seen posts in MPSIMS or the Pit where people say things like:
> They wanted me to sign in on my phone, and since I’ll never do that, I skipped the appointment and never saw the doctor.
Hey, King Ludd, I bought a used iPhone for less than $100, because a Smartphone is needed in this modern world. Oh, and hey, **AHunter3** , the iPhone 12 or 13 Mini is only 2 1/2" wide, so it easily fits in a pocket.
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### Author:  [@WOOKINPANUBv.2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUBv.2)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2025, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/53 "2025-04-07T04:01:41Z")
> [@digs](#):
>
> They wanted me to sign in on my phone, and since I’ll never do that, I skipped the appointment and never saw the doctor.
I think that might be a different neurosis. Maybe paranoia? When I visited my Trumper, CT father in Las Vegas, we were trying to plan visits to some attractions but all of them required purchasing tickets online. He’s soo paranoid that it took an hour of him haranguing people before it became clear that an online transaction would be required. I just let him use my credit card 🙄 Meh, who am I kidding; he’s probably a _paranoid_ luddite
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### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2025, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/54 "2025-04-07T04:20:43Z")
> [@griffin1977](#):
>
> Specifically you don’t get to install the software you want without permission from your tech overlords, you don’t get to even start up your computer without registering your identity with those tech overlords and connecting to the internet to make sure you are in good standing.
Indeed. Even basic Windows 11 setup on a new computer (not an install, just the basic setup) demands an internet connection and a “Microsoft account”. It is in fact possible to bypass that requirement, but the method is super-sekret\* and certainly not publicized by Microsoft, and may have dire consequences down the road!
\* Shift+F10 for the command window, then `OOBE\BYPASSNRO`. I haven’t tried this but my understanding is that it unlocks the **option** to say “I have no internet connection – just go ahead with the setup anyway”. Why the fuck is that option not available without the super-sekret incantation? Because Microsoft wants to track your every move, and try to sell you crap at every opportunity.
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### Author:  [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2025, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/55 "2025-04-07T12:28:00Z")
I’m one of those looking for an alternative to Office so I guess I’m being pitted here.
Fuck off, bump.
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### Author:  [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2025, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/56 "2025-04-07T13:14:56Z")
> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> I was an early adopter of Windows XP,
You bringing that up gives you approximately 100% on the luddite scale.
it is 2025, you are trying to prove your tech chops by referring to something you did in 2000.
Tell us more about your new ways to store your clay tablets.
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2025, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/57 "2025-04-07T14:08:21Z")
> [@griffin1977](#):
>
> So I take objection to the term Luddite, I mean I am grumpy old Luddite. But Luddites were never fearful ignoramuses instinctively objecting to all new technology just out fear of change. They had legitimate objections to the technology in question, just like me.
I was thinking the same thing. The Luddites were complaining about inhumane conditions at textile factories, low pay, and inferior products which I think we can all agree are legitimate gripes. They weren’t just destroying textile machines out of a blind hatred for new technology.
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### Author:  [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2025, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/58 "2025-04-07T15:25:19Z")
Weren’t we told that Windows 10 would be the last version of Windows? Now every time my PC updates and restarts, it badgers me to upgrade to 11. I’ll have to upgrade eventually, but dammit, I don’t know if all the software tools I currently use are going to be compatible with 11.
They _ **lied** _ to us 😡
> **[Why Microsoft is calling Windows 10 ‘the last version of Windows’](https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/7/8568473/windows-10-last-version-of-windows)**
>
> The Verge is about technology and how it makes us feel. Founded in 2011, we offer our audience everything from breaking news to reviews to award-winning features and investigations, on our site, in video, and in podcasts.
Does that make me a grumpy old Luddite? I am a web developer…albeit at 60, pretty ancient for the tech industry.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2025, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/59 "2025-04-07T15:53:39Z")
> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> Indeed. Even basic Windows 11 setup on a new computer (not an install, just the basic setup) demands an internet connection and a “Microsoft account”. It is in fact possible to bypass that requirement, but the method is super-sekret\* and certainly not publicized by Microsoft, and may have dire consequences down the road!
>
> - Shift+F10 for the command window, then `OOBE\BYPASSNRO`. I haven’t tried this but my understanding is that it unlocks the **option** to say “I have no internet connection – just go ahead with the setup anyway”. Why the fuck is that option not available without the super-sekret incantation? Because Microsoft wants to track your every move, and try to sell you crap at every opportunity.
Do you have to re install Windows to do that? The friend who helped me set up this laptop tried mightily to create an admin account I could log into without an internet connection. He was able to create a user account I can log into without an internet connection. I am not sure why I would need admin level access and not have an internet connection. But, it could happen.
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2025, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grumpy-old-luddites-around-here/1016701/60 "2025-04-07T16:00:59Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> Moaning about $129 MS Office upgrades seems backward to me; that’s _CHEAP_ today; that’s what it cost 20 years ago IIRC. Or even more maybe.
My moan was because they put the price up and pretended it was just like an inflationary increase, then “hey, look! AI features you neither want nor need, and ‘free AI Credits’ to use them!” - and then I discover that the package I was on before, at the price I was paying before, is still available - so it wasn’t a price increase at all - it was fraudulent upselling - the extra money was for the AI features they had upsold me to, without my consent. I think I’m justified in getting a bit grumpy about fraudulent sales tactics.
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