# GS programmer jailed, released, jailed again - really for nothing **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 31, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535 "2013-12-31T02:41:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/21 "2013-12-31T17:57:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Righ. It’s a resource you can use. But it is not used until it is. I would argue, though, that procuring a resource and placing it at the ready, to be drawn on if needed, constitutes “use.” But I agree that reasonable minds can differ on the point. I would further argue, though, that when you said, “There is no indication whatsoever that he used any of GS’s proprietary code anywhere,” there’s at least an implication that GS proprietary code was _not involved in the incident_, as opposed to simply not being used in the sense you now describe. To the extent that this implication exists, I think it’s valuable to clarify that GS proprietary code was copied and made available for use…even if not “used.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/22 "2013-12-31T17:59:25Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’ve saved a few of my programs as I went from job to job. Maybe a dozen total. But nothing like what he took. 32MB of source code is massive. Programs are just text files and very small. Several thousand lines of code are just a few kb’s for a program. First of all, it was 8MB not 32MB. He transferred the same 8MB of code, four times. And - 8MB of code is not “massive”. I am half way through working on a project right now. The code is 24MB so far. And that’s just the project code - standard libraries are not included. It will definitely surpass 32MB in the end. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/23 "2013-12-31T18:01:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I would further argue, though, that when you said, “There is no indication whatsoever that he used any of GS’s proprietary code anywhere,” there’s at least an implication that GS proprietary code was _not involved in the incident_, as opposed to simply not being used in the sense you now describe. “Use the code” has a very definite meaning for programmers. Having it sit on your hard disk, not included in any of your programs does not in any way constitute “use”. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/24 "2013-12-31T18:15:44Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > That said, it doesn’t sound like he \*used \*any of the code he took, in any normal sense of the word. The entire point of the Vanity Fair article (did you read it?) is that nobody involved in the chain of events really understood what they were upset about. Goldman Sachs painted a picture for the federal government of a guy who stole code to give to a competitor and then covered his tracks. This picture is absurd, but I have no doubt that everyone believed it – Goldman Sachs, the FBI, the AG, the judge, and the jury. Fuck, even the article mistakenly refers to the “subversion repository”, as though it’s a repository for subversive things. SubVersion is a product name, a play on the word “Version”, as in a Software Version Management system. Well, he hadn’t used it _yet_, anyway. The article works hard to try to add complexity to what seems like a rather straightforward story of someone taking something valuable that was not his to take, but it did not convince me that that complexity was relevant to the legal issues raised. I get that Lewis accepts Aleynikov’s account of his motivations, but I can also understand how a jury might take a different view. > [@steronz](#): > > It seems telling that the new charges, even if he’s convicted, won’t result in any additional jail time. That was the offer that was made if he would have pleaded guilty. Since he rejected that offer, if he is convicted on the new charges, he may again be sentenced to a prison term. In that circumstance, I suppose that it is possible that the state court could count his previous prison term toward time served, although there may be some obscure legal obstacles to doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/25 "2013-12-31T18:19:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Use the code” has a very definite meaning for programmers. Having it sit on your hard disk, not included in any of your programs does not in any way constitute “use”. So you’re saying that the man’s innocence hangs on the minutiae that constitutes differences in possible definitions of a one syllable word, because context and precise meaning matter when the word “use” is applied to this very specific set of circumstances? Do I have that right? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/26 "2013-12-31T18:21:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Use the code” has a very definite meaning for programmers. Having it sit on your hard disk, not included in any of your programs does not in any way constitute “use”. Sure, sure. But since many who read these words are not programmers, I think it’s a great idea to clarify the meaning of “use,” and thus casual non-programmer reader are not left with an inaccurate impression. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/27 "2013-12-31T18:22:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > He was charged over stuff that programmers routinely do when they move job to job. I realize the point of you starting this thread was to make the case that the justice system hasn’t caught up to modern business practices, but instead you’re doing a pretty good job of convincing me that it is routine for programmers to steal and break the law. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/28 "2013-12-31T18:28:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So you’re saying that the man’s innocence hangs on the minutiae that constitutes differences in possible definitions of a one syllable word, because context and precise meaning matter when the word “use” is applied to this very specific set of circumstances? Do I have that right? No, you don’t have it right. I posted this: “There is no indication whatsoever that he used any of GS’s proprietary code anywhere.” Bricker disagreed. I showed Bricker he was wrong. Your post has nothing to do with what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/29 "2013-12-31T18:31:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure, sure. But since many who read these words are not programmers, I think it’s a great idea to clarify the meaning of “use,” and thus casual non-programmer reader are not left with an inaccurate impression. Right? Why is the opinion of a casual non-programmer user on what “use the code” means relevant? Do you also think that a casual non-medical person should decide what “calculus” means in a medical case? Or “abduction”? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/30 "2013-12-31T18:35:56Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I realize the point of you starting this thread was to make the case that the justice system hasn’t caught up to modern business practices, but instead you’re doing a pretty good job of convincing me that it is routine for programmers to steal and break the law. The appeals judge disagrees. Aleynikov was released and his sentence overturned because the judge said that the code that he took did not constitute a “stolen good”, and because (as I pointed out) the code was not “related to or included in a product that is produced for or placed in interstate or foreign commerce". ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/31 "2013-12-31T18:39:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, you don’t have it right. I posted this: > > “There is no indication whatsoever that he used any of GS’s proprietary code anywhere.” > > Bricker disagreed. I showed Bricker he was wrong. Your post has nothing to do with what I said. So now you’re saying that the definition of the word “use” does not come into play when deciding whether or not Mr. Aleynikov broke the law? That the standard definition can apply? Because earlier you seemed to be arguing that a different, perhaps more obscure, meaning should be considered. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/32 "2013-12-31T18:41:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why is the opinion of a casual non-programmer user on what “use the code” means relevant? Do you also think that a casual non-medical person should decide what “calculus” means in a medical case? Or “abduction”? Those are non-sequiter questions. Here was the language of post #3, in response to **Tom Tildrum** ’s demur on the point raised in the thread title that Aleynikov was jailed “for nothing, really.” > [@Terr](#): > > He was charged over stuff that programmers routinely do when they move job to job. There is no indication whatsoever that he used any of GS’s proprietary code anywhere. This post purports to describe, for the readership of the thread, the actual facts of what happened. A parochial meaning of “use,” peculiar to the world of programming, does not convey clearly what happened. You don’t dispute that he _copied_ proprietary code, and leveraged the existence of that code and his possession of it as a guarantee that he could deliver to his new employer a working system in six months. You mean to communicate only that, according to you, he never “used” the code in the sense of deploying it to a working test or production server. So the point of my clarification is to inform the thread’s readership of what happened – to make clear that “use” means deploy as working code, as opposed to copy, possess, and rest assurances on. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/33 "2013-12-31T18:43:09Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So now you’re saying that the definition of the word “use” does not come into play when deciding whether or not Mr. Aleynikov broke the law? The appeals judge already ruled that Mr. Aleynikov neither stole any goods nor used the code in any way that broke the law. > [@](#): > > That the standard definition can apply? Because earlier you seemed to be arguing that a different, perhaps more obscure, meaning should be considered. The definition I use is the standard definition. Claiming that source code that sits in some corner of hard disk and is not included in any program is being “used” is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/34 "2013-12-31T18:46:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A parochial meaning of “use,” peculiar to the world of programming, does not convey clearly what happened. It is not “peculiar to the world of programming”. It is common sense. Source code that is not included in any program you write is not “used”. > [@](#): > > You don’t dispute that he _copied_ proprietary code, and leveraged the existence of that code and his possession of it as a guarantee that he could deliver to his new employer a working system in six months. I definitely dispute the “leveraged” part. > [@](#): > > You mean to communicate only that, according to you, he never “used” the code in the sense of deploying it to a working test or production server. There is no proof and no indication that he ever “used” the GS proprietary code in the sense of including it in any program he wrote after he left GS. No “deployment”. > [@](#): > > So the point of my clarification is to inform the thread’s readership of what happened – to make clear that “use” means deploy as working code, as opposed to copy, possess, and rest assurances on. No. “Use” means include it in your own code. Whether it is deployed or not. Can you show that that is what happened? Prosecution certainly didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/35 "2013-12-31T18:48:43Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The article works hard to try to add complexity to what seems like a rather straightforward story of someone taking something valuable that was not his to take, but it did not convince me that that complexity was relevant to the legal issues raised. I get that Lewis accepts Aleynikov’s account of his motivations, but I can also understand how a jury might take a different view. [The prosecution has added the complexity, though.](http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2010/12/10/ex-goldman-programmer-is-convicted/?_r=0) [QUOTE=NYT] Federal prosecutors depicted Mr. Aleynikov as a brazen crook who was “meticulous, deliberate and clever” in filching thousands of files and hundreds of thousands of lines of code from Goldman. He sought to use that code, prosecutors argued, as the building blocks to create a hedge fund trading platform at Teza. The government’s strategy was to play to the jury’s basic sense of right and wrong. “This is a case about theft and greed,” said Joseph Facciponti, the lead prosecutor, in his opening statement. The government made much of Mr. Aleynikov’s deleting and encrypting various files after he took them from Goldman’s servers. “Like a good thief, he covered his tracks, brushing aside his digital footprint,” Rebecca Rohr, a prosecutor, said in her closing remarks. [/QUOTE] They included details that, to a layperson, sound nefarious, but to a programmer seem completely typical. Uploading your code to an online repository is not “encrypting it and sending it to Germany to evade detection.” I’m working on an app right now that I just encrypted and sent overseas, call the cops! In any case, the fact that the convictions were overturned says a lot about the government’s case. So here are the state charges. 1. [Unlawful duplication of computer related material.](http://www.new-york-lawyers.org/lawyer-attorney-1856254.html) There are two degrees, a first-degree charge that requires “[intentionally and wrongfully depriv[ing] the rightful owner of that property or appropriate from the same an economic value greater than $2,500.](http://www.new-york-lawyers.org/lawyer-attorney-1856260.html)” It would be an uphill battle for them to show any economic loss to Goldman Sachs. The second-degree charge is a misdemeanor with a 90-day sentence, _but_ the first-degree charge will apply if included with an additional felony, in this case, 2. [Unlawful use of secret scientific material](http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/PEN/THREE/J/165/165.07). Here’s the text: > [@](#): > > A person is guilty of unlawful use of secret scientific material when, **with intent to appropriate to himself or another the use of secret scientific material,** and having no right to do so and no reasonable ground to believe that he has such right, he makes a tangible reproduction or representation of such secret scientific material by means of writing, photographing, drawing, mechanically or electronically reproducing or recording such secret scientific material. Unlawful use of secret scientific material is a class E felony. Bolding mine. The first charge I think they can make stick, albeit in misdemeanor form. If they want a felony conviction out of this they need the second charge to stick, and to do that they need to show intent to use stolen code. And that’s what the Vanity Fair article is all about. You can call it “adding complexity,” but in this case, clarifying his motivations to counter the picture painted by the prosecution seems important. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/36 "2013-12-31T18:49:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The appeals judge disagrees. Aleynikov was released and his sentence overturned because the judge said that the code that he took did not constitute a “stolen good”, and because (as I pointed out) the code was not “related to or included in a product that is produced for or placed in interstate or foreign commerce". I’m not talking about the specifics of this case, I’m talking about your comments in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/37 "2013-12-31T18:52:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not talking about the specifics of this case, I’m talking about your comments in this thread. My comments in this thread is that what Aleynikov did is standard practice among programmers. And, as the appeals judge agreed, it does not constitute a crime. GS’s prosecution of Aleynikov was purely malicious, with willing assistance from the feds. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/38 "2013-12-31T18:56:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The appeals judge disagrees. Aleynikov was released and his sentence overturned because the judge said that the code that he took did not constitute a “stolen good”, and because (as I pointed out) the code was not “related to or included in a product that is produced for or placed in interstate or foreign commerce". A remaining question, though, is whether Aleynikov intentionally and wrongfully appropriated from GS code valued at over $2500. If he did, then his action violated NYPL § 156.30. So you’re right – nothing Aleynikov did seems to be a federal crime. (Or, more to the point, it was not a federal crime at the time). But it does appear to violate New York’s state law. > [@Terr](#): > > My comments in this thread is that what Aleynikov did is standard practice among programmers. And, as the appeals judge agreed, it does not constitute a crime. GS’s prosecution of Aleynikov was purely malicious, with willing assistance from the feds. It does not constitute a federal crime, you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/39 "2013-12-31T18:57:38Z")
By the way, a [federal judge ordered](http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/10/22/judge-orders-goldman-to-pay-programmers-legal-bills/?_r=0) Goldman Sachs to pay Aleynikov’s legal bills. Which in the end will exceed $4M. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/40 "2013-12-31T19:10:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The appeals judge already ruled that Mr. Aleynikov neither stole any goods nor used the code in any way that broke the law.The definition I use is the standard definition. Claiming that source code that sits in some corner of hard disk and is not included in any program is being “used” is ridiculous. Frankly, I don’t see what it matters whether or not something was used. It’s still theft. And the appeals court ruling didn’t say that Mr. Aleynikov didn’t steal anything, just that his actions did not fall under the law that he was convicted of violating. And I find your parsing of the one syllable word’s definition hilarious; that’s why I keep asking you to clarify your position on the matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535.md?page=3)