# GS programmer jailed, released, jailed again - really for nothing **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 31, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535 "2013-12-31T02:41:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/41 "2013-12-31T19:14:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > By the way, a [federal judge ordered](http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/10/22/judge-orders-goldman-to-pay-programmers-legal-bills/?_r=0) Goldman Sachs to pay Aleynikov’s legal bills. Which in the end will exceed $4M. Do you mention this because you think this is some kind of comment on the merits of the accusations against him? ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/42 "2013-12-31T19:20:07Z")
This thread is great. Now I know that if I rob a bank, but shove the money under my mattress and don’t “use” it, I’m in the clear! Right? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/43 "2013-12-31T19:25:00Z")
Right – one can read **Terr** ’s assertions and think that the Court of Appeals determined that Aleynikov didn’t steal anything, or that a court recently found that Goldman Sachs should be penalized for their malicious accusation of him. But those would be incorrect readings, whether **Terr** intends to imply them or not. I just read the Court of Appeals decision. In my reading, it doesn’t say that Aleynikov didn’t steal anything, it makes two narrow interpretations that the laws he was charged with do not apply to his situation. For example, one of the laws prohibits the theft of a “good.” The court spends several pages discussing what a “good” is, and finds that a good must be a tangible item under the way that particular statute is written. Code, however, isn’t a tangible thing, so Aleynikov could not have violated that law. The court also found that Aleynikov didn’t violate a law against economic espionage because the computer system he maintained and upgraded was never intended to be sold to anyone. In essence, it didn’t matter that the computer system was engaged in commerce, the court said the relevant point was that the computer system itself would never be sold to anyone. And finally, the other court ordered Goldman Sachs to pay Aleynikov’s bills not as a judgment of wrongdoing in accusing Aleynikov of a crime, but it appears that Aleynikov was entitled as part of his contract to legal representation, which Goldman Sachs did not provide. There’s a difference between someone violating a specific law and someone doing something that’s just simply wrong. We don’t send people to jail for doing objectionable things, and the courts have found in that Aleynikov basically was charged with the wrong types of crimes. That’s fine, that’s the way justice works. But **Terr** ’s implications that Aleynikov did nothing wrong ring totally hollow to me. It seems to me that Aleynikov stole a thing, but that thing wasn’t protected by those particular laws. But it seems quite clear to me that he did take stuff that wasn’t his, and I find that to be wrong. In fact, as the Court of Appeals concludes: “The conduct found by the jury is conduct that Aleynikov should have known was in breach of his confidentiality obligations to Goldman,\*\* and was dishonest in ways that would subject him to sanctions\*\*; but he could not have known that it would offend this criminal law or this particular sovereign.” Hardly a ringing endorsement of his actions. ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/44 "2013-12-31T19:34:12Z")
I did not read everything in the article, but was wondering if at any time a computer forensics expert was consulted? It certainly seemed called for, then if the expert concluded nothing was actually criminal, the charges are normally dropped. However from what I did read it seems that there is a better than even chance that something criminal DID occur, even though the occurrence could be considered minor by many. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/45 "2013-12-31T19:37:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you mention this because you think this is some kind of comment on the merits of the accusations against him? Nah. Just tickles my sense of justice when GS has to pay millions toward the legal bills of the guy they maliciously prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/46 "2013-12-31T19:38:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > There’s a difference between someone violating a specific law and someone doing something that’s just simply wrong. We don’t send people to jail for doing objectionable things, and the courts have found in that Aleynikov basically was charged with the wrong types of crimes. That’s fine, that’s the way justice works. But **Terr** ’s implications that Aleynikov did nothing wrong ring totally hollow to me. The feds could not find anything else to charge him with. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/47 "2013-12-31T19:53:15Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The feds could not find anything else to charge him with. It seems that the state of New York has. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/48 "2013-12-31T19:58:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > It seems that the state of New York has. Of course. If he gets off on these charges, they will arrest him for jaywalking next. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/49 "2013-12-31T20:01:21Z")
Setting aside the question of the precise wording of the statutes, why do you (and the article, really) think that a common person cannot make a judgment of whether this individual took something that didn’t belong to him? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/50 "2013-12-31T20:20:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Nah. Just tickles my sense of justice when GS has to pay millions toward the legal bills of the guy they maliciously prosecuted. Well, now – this is interesting. I am sure, given your recent diatribe on “use,” that you have devoted equal attention to precise use of the legal term “malicious prosecution.” You have, right? From (generally) Restatement Torts § 653 et seq, malicious prosecution is a tort whose elements consist of procuring the prosecution of another under lawful process maliciously and without probable cause. In this current case, a grand jury indicted Aleynikov and a federal judge entered a verdict of guilty against him. While ultimately the appeals court found his conduct did not violate the law, the existence of probable cause is proven by the grand jury’s indictment and the judge’s verdict. So I don’t agree that the facts establish malicious prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/51 "2013-12-31T20:23:54Z")
Just tickles my sense of justice when GS has to pay millions toward the legal bills of the guy they maliciously prosecuted (disclaimer: “maliciously prosecuted” is not used in the sentence as a legal term, but in the common sense of the word, and is my opinion). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/52 "2013-12-31T20:24:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Nah. Just tickles my sense of justice when GS has to pay millions toward the legal bills of the guy they maliciously prosecuted. Huh. And here I thought the federal government was the prosecutor. When did Goldman-Sachs buy themselves the Justice Dept.? > [@Terr](#): > > Just tickles my sense of justice when GS has to pay millions toward the legal bills of the guy they maliciously prosecuted (disclaimer: “maliciously prosecuted” is not used in the sentence as a legal term, but in the common sense of the word, and is my opinion). You mean the common sense that is “institute legal proceedings against (a person or organization)”, right? Or is there some other “common sense of the word” that you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/53 "2013-12-31T20:24:37Z")
I am a software engineer and I have never taken proprietary code with me when I’ve moved jobs, let alone 8 MB worth. The most I’ve done is written generic scripts and put them on a open source repository. The guy in the article was stupid (and wrong) to take the code with him and it doesn’t matter if he “used” it. It may or may not be true that GS is over-zealous in its prosecution; on that I don’t have much of an opinion. > [@hotflungwok](#): > > So how come GS gets to take open source software and make it proprietary software by fiat? How can you steal something that anyone can acquire for free? It depends on the license. If the OSS is released under one of the GNU licenses then changes _must_ be released as OSS or it’s a violation. The Apache license, however, let’s you do pretty much anything you want; you can copy it and pretend it’s proprietary without making a single change. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/54 "2013-12-31T21:52:28Z")
> [@mozchron](#): > > This thread is great. Now I know that if I rob a bank, but shove the money under my mattress and don’t “use” it, I’m in the clear! > > Right? That metaphor works if the bank still has all of its money. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/55 "2013-12-31T22:43:50Z")
Are computer codes considered to be intellectual property? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/56 "2013-12-31T22:55:34Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Are computer codes considered to be intellectual property? If you mean computer software, then yes. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/57 "2013-12-31T23:16:39Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > It depends on the license. If the OSS is released under one of the GNU licenses then changes _must_ be released as OSS or it’s a violation. The Apache license, however, let’s you do pretty much anything you want; you can copy it and pretend it’s proprietary without making a single change. No, the GPL licenses require release only in the case where the derived work is distributed. Huge numbers of organizations use internally-modified GPL code and are under no obligation to release it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535/58 "2014-01-02T14:22:28Z")
So…the OP’s characterization of, “…nothing, really…” appears to be in some jeopardy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gs-programmer-jailed-released-jailed-again-really-for-nothing/677535.md?page=2)