# Guantanamo force feeding is a nasty business **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 16, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629 "2013-07-16T02:12:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/21 "2013-07-16T15:45:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I believe the argument can be made that a person who believes God wants him to starve himself to death in exchange for supernatural favors in the afterlife is not “capable of forming an unimpaired and rational judgment”. I’m an atheist. But seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/22 "2013-07-16T16:18:36Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I’m an atheist. But seriously? Yes, that is seriously what the prisoners being force-fed believe. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/23 "2013-07-16T16:25:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, that is seriously what the prisoners being force-fed believe. 😛 No, I mean are you seriously going to suggest that the US disallow them their beliefs? Personally, I find most religious beliefs to be delusional, but hey. . .First Ammendment, etc? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/24 "2013-07-16T16:33:14Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > 😛 No, I mean are you seriously going to suggest that the US disallow them their beliefs? Personally, I find most religious beliefs to be delusional, but hey. . .First Ammendment, etc? Neither I nor the courts have ever understood the First Amendment to protect the right of a prisoner to commit suicide. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/25 "2013-07-16T16:41:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Neither I nor the courts have ever understood the First Amendment to protect the right of a prisoner to commit suicide. OK, so you are cool with force-feeding prisoners via nasogastric tube. Who performs the procedure? The medical community has asserted it is against their ethics. Who does it? Guards? Cafeteria workers? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/26 "2013-07-16T16:52:36Z")
We should just let these people go ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/27 "2013-07-16T17:05:04Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > They suggest they **not** force a medical procedure on them, even one as benign as nasogastric feeding. > > IANAD, but I agree with their ethical stand. Note that once a prisoner loses consciousness, he has presumably lost the capability to make an informed judgment to continue the hunger strike. The ethical question for the physician seems more complicated at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Jaymosch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaymosch/32/2820_2.png) [@Jaymosch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaymosch)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/28 "2013-07-16T17:07:10Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > We should just let these people go Where? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/29 "2013-07-16T17:09:21Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I had a friend with diverticulitis/crohns/etc who was told that without partial colectomy and a colostomy he would die. His prognosis with surgery was pretty good. He declined medical intervention. Would you suggest he be forced to submit to surgery? No. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/30 "2013-07-16T17:16:22Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I had a friend with diverticulitis/crohns/etc who was told that without partial colectomy and a colostomy he would die. His prognosis with surgery was pretty good. He declined medical intervention. YES, competent patients are allowed to refuse life saving medical treatments. Even if they present with acute appendicitis and will surly die without treatment - they are allowed to refuse. Medical procedures are never supposed to be performed on a patient without consent, even if it is in their best interests. It’s the difference between surgery and assault. In the case of suicide, intervention is justified because of the whole sound mind/competency argument. (However, more and more this is getting murkier, because there is increasing evidence that patients may be of sound mind and still want to die) Force feeding of prisoners is an ethical gray area and there is compelling arguments on both sides of the debate. Prisoners are allowed to refuse medical treatment, they are not stripped of their human rights (at least in US prisons, housing US citizens, Gitmo is a whole 'nother can of worms). My understanding, according to many US court precedents the force feeding of prison inmates is warranted if used to ‘maintain safety and order in the prison’. [Pentagon warned against use of physicians in forced feeding](http://www.amednews.com/article/20130513/government/130519978/6/) > [@](#): > > The Defense Dept.'s policy is inconsistent with the World Medical Assn.'s Declaration of Malta on Hunger Strikers and policies from a host of other national and international health organizations that condemn force-feeding at prisons, said Vincent Iacopino, MD, PhD, senior medical adviser for Physicians for Human Rights. Dr. Iacopino has done extensive research on alleged abuse of Guantanamo Bay detainees, examined inmates and testified in court on their behalf. > > “Hunger strikes shouldn’t be confused with the intent to commit suicide,” he said. “Hunger strikes are a form of protest, an attempt to shame detainee authorities into action by individuals who are desperate to have some control over their lives.” And currently, California prison inmates are hunger striking (again) to protest “solitary confinement and call for improved prison conditions. The strike, involving roughly two-thirds of the state’s prisons, is one of the largest in California history.” [California Hunger Strike Raises Issue of Force-Feeding on U.S. Soil](http://www.propublica.org/article/california-hunger-strike-raises-issue-of-force-feeding-on-u.s.-soil) ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/31 "2013-07-16T17:39:54Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > OK, so you are cool with force-feeding prisoners via nasogastric tube. Who performs the procedure? The medical community has asserted it is against their ethics. Who does it? Guards? Cafeteria workers? Who’s doing it now? ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/32 "2013-07-16T17:47:54Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Note that once a prisoner loses consciousness, he has presumably lost the capability to make an informed judgment to continue the hunger strike. The ethical question for the physician seems more complicated at that point. Yeah, definitely not so cut and dry. Patient consent doesn’t become irrelevant once they lose consciousness. Physicians can’t perform any procedure they consider in the ‘patient’s best interest’ just because a patient is unconscious or under anesthesia. Particularly when a patient has explicitly expressed their intent prior to losing consciousness and they were of sound mind when they did so. Unlike an unconscious patient presenting at the emergency room, the hunger striking patient’s intent is known. This is the whole premise of living wills, advance directives, DNRs, etc, - so that people had the opportunity to state their intent prior to becoming incapacitated. It doesn’t just go out the window once they are incapacitated. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/33 "2013-07-16T17:55:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Who’s doing it now? It seems non-physician medical staff under the supervision of a physician. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/34 "2013-07-16T17:58:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Who’s doing it now? From what I’ve read, “Navy medical staff” (nurses). ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/35 "2013-07-16T17:59:44Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > It seems non-physician medical staff under the supervision of a physician. Oh, so an 18 year old medic is being ordered to force-feed detainees against their will. Ordered and supervised by an officer who is also a Dr. We’re setting those kids up for as much PTSD as the ones who are actual trigger pullers. Possibly more. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/36 "2013-07-16T18:06:46Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Oh, so an 18 year old medic is being ordered to force-feed detainees against their will. Ordered and supervised by an officer who is also a Dr. > > We’re setting those kids up for as much PTSD as the ones who are actual trigger pullers. Possibly more. Agreed. It is a weasel way out. Oversight is still active participation. > [@](#): > > In an April 24 letter to Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel, American Medical Association President Jeremy A. Lazarus, MD, reiterated the AMA’s long-held position that physician participation in force-feeding violates the core ethical values of the medical profession. > > “Allegations of ongoing forced feeding of detainees in U.S. custody, possibly with participation by physicians, continue to be brought to our attention,” Dr. Lazarus wrote. “Every competent patient has the right to refuse medical intervention, including life-sustaining interventions. … We urge you to ensure that this matter receives prompt and thorough attention and to address any situation in which a physician may be asked to violate the ethical standards of his or her profession.” ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/37 "2013-07-16T18:10:09Z")
> [@Jaymosch](#): > > Where? Into the US, with apologies about their detainment. Hell, smuggle them into the country and give them a fake identity. Its enough, really. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/38 "2013-07-16T18:24:21Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Oh, so an 18 year old medic is being ordered to force-feed detainees against their will. Ordered and supervised by an officer who is also a Dr. > > We’re setting those kids up for as much PTSD as the ones who are actual trigger pullers. Possibly more. When pneumonia, pneumothorax, or some other sequela occurs and leads to death they will feel even worse. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/39 "2013-07-16T18:31:14Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Into the US, with apologies about their detainment. Hell, smuggle them into the country and give them a fake identity. Its enough, really. Who should do that? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629/40 "2013-07-16T18:51:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Who should do that? Obama? I voted for the guy (twice); in large part due to his promise to close Guantanamo, and in no lesser part due to his promise to not use the Federal government to prosecute cannabis users in states that had legalized the drug. I feel fucked over. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guantanamo-force-feeding-is-a-nasty-business/663629.md?page=3)