Guantanamo: minority report?

[RedFury]

[QUOTE=Nava]
Would you kindly inform the current Spanish government please? We have some… ah, interesting recent laws regarding chimpanzee rights which were taken for a collective joke, at first. Nope, them Socialists are serious.
[/QUOTE]

You might want to acquaint yourself with the facts prior to taking you ususal potshots at Zapatero’s Government:

1-First off, all initiatives stem from here:The Great Ape Project. I invite you to read it. There are some very well made points in it.

2-Secondly, it wasn’t a “Socialist project” per se but rather an initiative taken by El Parlamento De Las Islas Baleares.

Cite and quote: Spanish islands extend “human rights” to apes

The Balearic Islands are located in the western Mediterranean Sea, near the eastern coast of the Iberian Peninsula, and form one of the Autonomous Communities of Spain The Islands are one of the most popular holiday destinations in all of Europe Deputy Margalida Rosselló presented the Balearic Parliament with the resolution early last summer, requesting a declaration of support for the mission of the Great Ape Project, International - to legally grant great apes freedom from torture, mistreatment and unnecessary death. This resolution has also been presented to the Spanish Government and is expected to be considered this summer after being deferred due to unrelated political issues last year.

According the Pedro Pozas, Executive Director of Great Ape Project, Spain, “the decision of the Balearic Government to approve this Proposal, makes it a world-wide leader in the protection of the great apes and their habitat, as well as in the support of their rights.”

Opponents cite concern over granting “human” rights to animals. **However, supporters are quick to point out that the resolution approved by the Balearic Parliament and proposed to the Spanish Government does not seek to grant great apes the same rights available only to humans. The proposition simply recognizes basic legal protections supported by biological and scientific evidence that great apes, like human children, experience an emotional and intellectual conscience similar to that of human children. ** For years, the scientific community has widely recognized that great apes experience intense emotions such as fear, anxiety, happiness; can independently solve puzzles and create and use tools; recognize the past and plan for their future; and can learn to communicate in and unilaterally teach a different language to their children.

By declaring its support of fundamental rights for great apes, the Balearic Parliament has taken scientific evidence to the next level by establishing a legal recognition that these creatures are conscious, self-aware beings that should not be tortured, abused and neglected. The efforts by the Balearic Parliament to stop the oppression of intelligent and self-aware beings who cannot speak for themselves is an important step in the political arena of animal rights.

Reading the facts, I am rather proud to be a citizen of a country where leading steps are being taken to help and protect “the oppression of intelligent and self-aware beings who cannot speak for themselves.”

Beyond that read the bolded/colored part, you’ll notice tha this measure does NOT equate to giving Apes the equivalent of Human Rights.

That’s all. You may now go on lighting candles to your wingnut idol/tool, Aznar.

[RedFury]

BTW, I strongly second the OP in the thoughts expressed in this post.

[LilShieste]

Thanks for the response, FRDE.

[QUOTE=FRDE]

Perhaps I had better explain where I am coming from.

Laws apply to citizens of a State, also to people within that State (on the assumption that by being there they have given implicit consent). They should be enforced rigorously.

UK Laws do not apply to citizens of Equador in Zambia.

[/quote]

There’s nothing I disagree with, in these statements.

@FRDE

Conventions, the most memorable of which is the Geneva Convention, apply to citizens of States that have signed the Convention. A Mau Mau guerilla is not entitled to the same ‘protection’ as a WWII German soldier captured by the USA.

I think this is where we begin to part ways.

I don’t agree with that particular interpretation of the Geneva Conventions. That is, the interpretation that a signatory should only abide by the “rules” when engaged with another signatory. That’s probably a completely different debate, though.

@FRDE

Human Rights are a load of idealistic principles that have been drafted rather than evolved, slinging them on top of an established body of Law causes havoc, as it has done in the UK.

I’m not sure what you mean here, by “drafted rather than evolved”. Laws are drafted at some point as well, and then given time to evolve. I believe the same needs to occur for things like international conventions, and human rights movements.

@FRDE

‘International Laws’ are a woolly concept, they entitle Serbian citizens to be tried for actions committed in Bosnia by a bunch of people sitting in the Hague - they are trans National - basically poking their noses into other people’s business.

I can’t argue that it’s not poking their noses into other people’s business. I think you’re exactly right on that point. But I think that, sometimes, it’s necessary (and morally necessary) to stick your nose in other people’s business. I realize that this is a very slippery slope, though.

@FRDE

The USA appears to understand that it does not want third parties imposing their ‘laws’ on USA citizens within the USA, although it does appear to think that it can impose its own laws on other people.

It’s one thing to impose one country’s laws on another country’s citizens. I think it’s a completely different thing to impose international law on a country’s citizens, though.
LilShieste

[LilShieste]

[QUOTE=RedFury]
You might want to acquaint yourself with the facts prior to taking you ususal potshots at Zapatero’s Government:

1-First off, all initiatives stem from here:The Great Ape Project. I invite you to read it. There are some very well made points in it.

2-Secondly, it wasn’t a “Socialist project” per se but rather an initiative taken by El Parlamento De Las Islas Baleares.

Cite and quote: Spanish islands extend “human rights” to apes
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the links, RedFury. I think they provide the exact context that was missing from the originating posts.
LilShieste