# Gucks still believe Saddam involved in 9/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064 "2005-03-17T22:50:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/41 "2005-03-19T01:55:59Z")
I detest the smarmy bastard as much as anyone, but I can’t believe that’s real, let alone that anyone would let that photograph be taken. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/42 "2005-03-19T03:21:43Z")
I’m pretty sure that the photo is real, why would it not be? The bit where it says ‘Merry Xmas’ has been added like… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/43 "2005-03-19T04:10:26Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > I’m pretty sure that the photo is real, why would it not be? Photoshop. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/44 "2005-03-19T04:29:49Z")
I believe the photo is [Ali Ismail](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2962891.stm) who lost his arms on an air raid on Baghdad. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/45 "2005-03-19T04:46:38Z")
This is as good a place to post this as any, I suppose. **"Secret US plans for Iraq’s oil"** > [@](#): > > Two years ago today - when President George Bush announced US, British and Allied forces would begin to bomb Baghdad - protesters claimed the US had a secret plan for Iraq’s oil once Saddam had been conquered. > In fact there were two conflicting plans, setting off a hidden policy war between neo-conservatives at the Pentagon, on one side, versus a combination of “Big Oil” executives and US State Department “pragmatists”. > > “Big Oil” appears to have won. The latest plan, obtained by Newsnight from the US State Department was, we learned, drafted with the help of American oil industry consultants… It goes on. Ahmed Chalabi, James Baker, the whole gang. [http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4354269.stm](http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4354269.stm) Bottom line: it wasn’t so much a matter of neo-con armed idealism, liberating the hell out of them whether they like it or not, but gaining a club to beat OPEC with. No doubt, I’ll have to hear more to become convinced, whereas now I’m only darkly suspicious. I was already pretty pissed off, but if this shit turns out to be true… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/46 "2005-03-19T05:13:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Two years ago today - when President George Bush announced US, British and Allied forces would begin to bomb Baghdad - protesters claimed the US had a secret plan for Iraq’s oil once Saddam had been conquered. Okay, this is the stuff that confuses the hell out of me. Who the hell doesn’t think they were after oil? My problem is Whiskey Tango Foxtrot gas beneath the Mason-Dixon line costs $2.10 a gallon if we won? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/47 "2005-03-19T05:45:28Z")
What makes you think _we_ won anything? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/48 "2005-03-19T05:51:32Z")
Wait. What? It was about oil?? _Get out!!!_ ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/49 "2005-03-19T11:54:42Z")
We’re still fighting the ex-Baathist dead-enders. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/50 "2005-03-19T14:08:34Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Alot of people died before Hitlers regime was defeated, does that mean it was not worth it? > > The Shia and Kurds are no longer oppressed, and I’ll grant the fact the Sunnis have been disenfranchised, but at least the other communities are trying to reach out to them, but they’re free from a tyrannical Baa’thist regime which would of destroyed Iraq eventually. > > This assumes in the majority of cases, living in a state without a repressive apparatus and prospect of free democratic government is very worthwhile. Let us know when you’re ready to pull your pants up and start speaking with your mouth as opposed to your arse. [Two years after invasion, few are celebrating](http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=296942005) > [@](#): > > “Security is the constant worry,” says Ruaa Jamal, a middle-class 23-year-old, whose demure appearance in traditional Muslim headscarf belies a hidden readiness for trouble. > > In her handbag is a four-inch switchblade, ready at the flick of a button against robbers, rapists and kidnappers. > > “I carry the knife whenever my father cannot take me to work, and I am thinking of buying a small ladies’ .22 calibre pistol, too. Many other girls I know already carry them.” > > What depresses Ms Jamal and many other Iraqis is that compared with this time last year, things seem to be getting worse, not better. Then, western diplomats in Baghdad were able to mark the anniversary by trumpeting achievements: the country’s creaking power network was back to pre-war levels, oil production had made a similar recovery, a mobile phone network was up and running and the security forces at last appeared to be taking shape. > > Iraqi politicians were even dispatched abroad to talk about how the “reality” of the country was nothing like the scenes of car bombs and chaos shown on TV. > > **This time round, after a year of escalated insurgency, car bombs and kidnappings, even the most upbeat coalition spin doctors seem largely silent.** \* > > No glossy brochures have been churned out showing gleaming new power stations or waterworks - mainly because security problems have all but stopped reconstruction. Most parts of the country exist on no more than two hours of power in every six, and in nearly every city, residents of the world’s second biggest oil-producing nation spend days queuing for petrol. (bolding mine) \*Maybe you should take your cue from them. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/51 "2005-03-19T14:42:11Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Photoshop. There are plenty of similar photos to be found at [http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2604.htm](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2604.htm) at [www.robert-fisk.com](http://www.robert-fisk.com) and numerous other websites which show the horrifying destruction of iraq and its people. Do you think they’re all ‘photoshopped’? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/52 "2005-03-19T15:17:01Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Photoshop. Do you think that no children have been maimed in the war, or just that it’s difficult to get pictures of these children? Or what? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/53 "2005-03-19T18:01:27Z")
> [@](#): > > (Checking the rules) Yup. The first poster to mention Hitler loses. I don’t think so. You’re bullshit theory of ‘hey Saddam was evil, but at least he provided stability, because you know those Arabs are incapable of anything else’ Is offensive. > [@](#): > > Let us know when you’re ready to pull your pants up and start speaking with your mouth as opposed to your arse. Weird, I thought you’d be used to the terminology of your posts, rather than displacing your insecurities onto other people. Chrenkoff, has listed from varius news sources 20 good round-ups from Iraq, [chrenkoff](http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/01/good-news-from-iraq-part-20.html) > [@](#): > > Besides, bombs going off outside your mosque every week doesn’t count as oppression? Mass and serial murders of policemen and judges isn’t oppression? Gosh, I’m glad they’re not oppressed. Whew Gosh, I’m inclined to the view that the Shia and Kurds are no longer on the long arm of the former regime? And that they, as the majority can now stand up against the former regime elements and Islamists, hence no longer oppressed. What I don’t get from the anti war crowd is that somehow people get shot = we should withdraw, which frankly I don’t hold such views. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/54 "2005-03-19T20:13:52Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > (Checking the rules) Yup. The first poster to mention Hitler loses. > > Besides, bombs going off outside your mosque every week doesn’t count as oppression? Mass and serial murders of policemen and judges isn’t oppression? Gosh, I’m glad they’re not oppressed. Whew. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I don’t think so. You’re bullshit theory of ‘hey Saddam was evil, but at least he provided stability, because you know those Arabs are incapable of anything else’ Is offensive. There’s nothing close to that in my post, as you can see. I don’t know whose “bullshit theory” you were flinging poo at, but it wasn’t mine. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Gosh, I’m inclined to the view that the Shia and Kurds are no longer on the long arm of the former regime? And that they, as the majority can now stand up against the former regime elements and Islamists, hence no longer oppressed. What I don’t get from the anti war crowd is that somehow people get shot = we should withdraw, which frankly I don’t hold such views. In fact, they **are** still being oppressed by the long arm of the former regime. By all accounts, the insurgents are the nasty bastards who ran the country until the war. You go on to throw another straw man at me. I never expressed any “shot=should withdraw” opinion. I am stating that we have not yet won the war. The people we went in to beat are still killing us and still oppressing the Shias and the Kurds. Our own DOD estimates 80, 000 soldiers are AWOL from the new Iraqi army, and lots of new police officers have resigned in fear of assassination. I hope that we will eventually win, and that the Iraqis will be able to keep their own country safe without our help. If you think that stuff has already happened, you’re kidding yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/55 "2005-03-19T23:09:47Z")
So the standard for invasion pretexts is now, “The people will be better off afterwards”? I can think of a dozen countries that would be just DELIGHTED to discover that that is an acceptable reason for invading another country. All of them of the sort we would term as “EVIL.” Sigh. But I guess with Bush in charge, we’re on their side now…" ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/56 "2005-03-20T00:05:59Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > So the standard for invasion pretexts is now, “The people will be better off afterwards”? I can think of a dozen countries that would be just DELIGHTED to discover that that is an acceptable reason for invading another country. All of them of the sort we would term as “EVIL.” Sigh. But I guess with Bush in charge, we’re on their side now…" But that goes into the notion of ‘if we can only fix one, we shouldn’t fix any?’ ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/57 "2005-03-20T02:33:38Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But that goes into the notion of ‘if we can only fix one, we shouldn’t fix any?’ You don’t seriously think that Iraq has been **“fixed”** in any way by being invaded, bombed to bits, thousands of its people tortured and tens of thousands killed or mained? Try telling that to his victims! God forbid that Bushco get the opportunity to “fix” any other country. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/58 "2005-03-20T03:28:06Z")
Used to have a cat. Had him fixed too. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/59 "2005-03-20T05:39:33Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But that goes into the notion of ‘if we can only fix one, we shouldn’t fix any?’ no, you missed the point. His point was if “the people were better off after the fact” was proper justification for the war, then Saudi Arabia, or some other somewhat shady country could justifiablely invade Iran or somethng, and claim that the Iranians were better off, because Iran is completely oppressed, and Saudi Araia pays lip service to democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064/60 "2005-03-20T05:48:55Z")
> [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#): > > You don’t seriously think that Iraq has been **“fixed”** in any way by being invaded, bombed to bits, thousands of its people tortured and tens of thousands killed or mained? Try telling that to his victims! > > God forbid that Bushco get the opportunity to “fix” any other country. Yawn: Go shove your slogans somewhere else. ‘Bushco’ is successfully helping Afghanistan, is that a failure too? Theres a democratic national assembly in Iraq, two years after the defeat of a Baa’thist dictatorship which has been running the country for more than 30 years. Its quite an achievement. And it was worth it. Take this blogger for example [Democracy in Iraq](http://democracyiniraq.blogspot.com/) > [@](#): > > To may outsiders, like those who protested last year, who will protest today. This was a fools errand, it brought nothing but death and destruction. I am sheltered in Iraq, but I know how the world feels, how people have come to either love or hate Bush, as though heis the emobdiement of this war. As though this war is part of Bush, they forget the over twenty million Iraqis, they forget the Middle Easterners, they forget the average person on the street, the average man with the average dream. > > Since then, we now have hope. Hope is not a tangible thing, but it is something, it is more than being blinded by darkness, by being stuck in a mental pit without any future. > > Iraqis see the finish line, the finish line of freedom and democracy and a functioning nation. We can smell it, taste it, and like a sprinter, one who has broken his legs, but who has a heart full of passion, we will crawl there no matter what the cost. No matter what we must endure, we have realized what we can become, and that is the biggest result of the last two years. > [@](#): > > Try telling that to his victims! forgotten Saddams victims so quickly? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gucks-still-believe-saddam-involved-in-9-11/295064.md?page=4)