# Guerilla War: Is Iraq really over? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817 "2003-06-18T23:56:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/21 "2003-06-20T00:44:54Z")
[Iraq’s Top Shiite Scholar Favors Civil Jihad](http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-06/18/article03.shtml) > [@](#): > > Iraq’s supreme Shiite authority Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani exhorted the Iraqi people to resort to “civil Jihad” against the American occupation, his secretary Hamid al-Khaffaf told [IslamOnline.net](http://IslamOnline.net). > Khaffaf said that Mohammad Reda, the son of Sheikh Sistani, delegated a fatwa issued by his father to the Iraqis, to deal with the Americans but always ask them one single question: ‘When will you get out of our land?’ > “This fatwa is a kind of civil Jihad approved by all Iraqi factions,” Khaffaf said, noting that the Iraqi people should be first morally and psychologically prepared to resist the Anglo-American forces. > He cited, in this respect, the Lebanese resistance against the Israeli army in the south as a classic example. > Khaffaf said the Lebanese resistance in the south was ignited more than one year after the 1982 Israeli invasion, noting it lasted for more than 20 years. This doen’t fit too well with the administration’s claim that Iraqi resistance stems from “the last remnants of a dying cause”. ([-Wolfowitz](http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/6120681.htm)) ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/22 "2003-06-20T01:06:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\ ***Lissa** , I doubt anyone here was as vociferously opposed to putting our kids in harms way as myself. But its too late. As appealing a notion as it may be, we simply can’t just yank them out of there and let the chips fall where they may, unless someone will volunteer to take our place. Its not even possible to gauge the consequences of turning Iraq over to the rule of Lord Chaos, civil war might be the least dreadful. > > What we _should_ do is go, hat in hand, to the UN and beg thier assistance. If they were to tell us to take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut, one could hardly blame them. > > A sensible path to a sane and peaceful solution? I’ve no idea. \*\* Indeed my friend. Please let me make it clear that I too believe that a total withdraw right now would be folly. Maybe I need to be clear. What makes me upset is that our president has appeared to write this off and has continued down the path to re-election. He DID declare victory and then made little blurbs about the possibility of an extended campaign. Let’s just say, for an example, he were to say the following to the American people: “I want to enage you in a conflict that will take very little time to overthrow the military. But, we will entwine ourselves in a long, drawn out endeavour to NATION BUILD. This will cost the lives of countless American soldiers, who will be shot down by snipers and mutiliated by RPG’s. But, it is worth it, because Saddam MAY have weapons of mass destruction. He MAY pose a threat. I am not sure because there are no direct links to Al Qaeda. But, he has defied the UN and, although I ignored that when I took over as president, I think it is important now. In fact, I berated Al Gore in the debates about the importance of nation building and instead endorsed isolationism. But, now, although I use UN evidence to back my assertions I disavow myself with any connection to this organization because they do not wish to do what I want. We will act without their consent and attack this country. Your brothers, mothers, sisters and fathers will die.” Do you think people would support him? I don’t think so. OTOH- Please do not diminish the deaths of our soldiers by saying they are “paid to kill”. This is true, but what disgusts me is that GWB calls victory, pockets the popularity and then pushes his political agenda. Just because we pay our soldiers to protect our nation does not mean they should be used to fulfill a political agenda. The President should STILL be in the ready-room. We are at WAR. Call it a police action, call it nation-building, call it counter-insurgency, call it whatever you wish. It is war. One poster asserted that the small number of attacks is indicative of a “few” minorities. I recall a time when ONE incident (anyone see the movie Black Hawk Down) motivated a nation to turn against the president for an attempt at “Nation Building”. Why now, when we have lost 4 times the number of soldiers (since the end of open hostilities), have we not witnessed a widespread “shock and awe”. This is a guerilla war, make no mistake. If we stay in this conflict long enough to establish a nation (at least two years), we will lose hundreds, if not thousands. Maybe you can callously wipe away their lives, but I cannot. They deserve more than that. They deserve a president that recognizes the deaths occurring right now. They deserve a president who is thinking of this conflict constantly. They deserve a president who takes responsibility for the reality he has created. They deserve a leader and if he does not have the strength to admit the realities openly, he becomes a coward. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/23 "2003-06-20T07:09:03Z")
[Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14492-2003Jun19.html?nav=hptop_tb) > [@](#): > > What are we getting into here?" asked a sergeant with the U.S. Army’s 4th Infantry Division who is stationed near Baqubah, a city 30 miles northeast of Baghdad. “The war is supposed to be over, but every day we hear of another soldier getting killed. Is it worth it? Saddam isn’t in power anymore. The locals want us to leave. Why are we still here?”… > > …Some soldiers are vexed by what they see as a contradictory reception from Iraqis. Sometimes the public appears welcoming, sometimes actively hostile. The problem recalls other military U.S. deployments, including in Afghanistan, where it can be difficult to distinguish friends from enemies. > > “The way it seemed is, once Iraqis got over being grateful for getting rid of Saddam, they found out quickly they don’t want the Americans, either,” said Sgt. Nestor Torres, a military policeman with the 3rd Infantry Division in the restive town of Fallujah, 35 miles west of Baghdad. “Everyone is blending in with everyone else, so you can’t tell the friendly ones from the hostile.” I hope GWB will at least admit that there is a problem. That’s step one. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/24 "2003-06-20T12:12:43Z")
One down, eleven to go. “My name is George, and I’m a power junkie…” “HI, George!..” ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/25 "2003-06-20T22:52:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\*I realize that Bush has declared victory, but I don’t recognize the victory when 50 flag covered U.S. coffins have been pulled out of the “non-war” zone in the past 45 days. > \ > Bush declared victory, but we have suffered about 33% as many casualties as we did during the invasion. \*\* Does anyone have a cite for the fifty+ casualties since “the gloat on the boat”? It’s not that I don’t believe it (honest), but I’ve had a hard time convincing others. Thanks, Pash ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/26 "2003-06-21T00:51:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pashnish Ewing \* > \*\*Does anyone have a cite for the fifty+ casualties since “the gloat on the boat”? It’s not that I don’t believe it (honest), but I’ve had a hard time convincing others. > > Thanks, > Pash \*\* I actually saw the CNN story about 50, but here is a CNN story about 40+ since victory was declared. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030618/80/e2mw0.html ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/27 "2003-06-21T00:52:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\*I actually saw the CNN story about 50, but here is a CNN story about 40+ since victory was declared. > > http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030618/80/e2mw0.html \*\* Sorry, try this… [uk.news.yahoo.com/030618/80/e2mw0.html](http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030618/80/e2mw0.html) ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/28 "2003-06-21T06:11:39Z")
It will take one attack on a barracks not unlike what happened in Beruit two decades back to change the whole war around. ---
**Author:** ![gouda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c77e96/32.png) [@gouda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gouda)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/29 "2003-06-21T15:18:30Z")
The big news these days here in India is about GWB ‘requesting’ the Indian government to deploy troops in northern Iraq as a policing/stabilising/security force, to replace American troops currently stationed there. The reasons being given, I must admit, do make sense, given the vast experience of the Indian Army in similar operations and the general affection Iraqis have for India. And seeing how the entire world is all but bending over backwards _not_ to displease GWB, about 20,000 Indian troops will be in northern Iraq in the coming months. So relax, many of your boy and girls are coming home. [Belongs in Pit, but what the hell] I hope GWB & Co. rot in hell… [/Belongs in Pit, but what the hell] ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/30 "2003-06-21T15:30:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pashnish Ewing \* > Does anyone have a cite for the fifty+ casualties since “the gloat on the boat”? > [@](#): > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14499-2003Jun19.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14499-2003Jun19.html) > Fifty-four Americans have died in accidents or military action since President Bush declared the war ended on May 1, equal to more than one-third of the 139 wartime deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/31 "2003-06-21T20:05:29Z")
I found the article I refer to published online article with pictures ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/32 "2003-06-21T20:25:34Z")
Umm…would you mind translating the relevant portions **Aldebaran?** ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/33 "2003-06-21T21:47:52Z")
Well in short it handles about Iraqi men who entered a park where some confiscated rifles and other weaponery was stored. The version of the US soldiers is they were out on stealing. Thus they stripped them, burned their cloths, and they were driven through the parks and through some streets of the neigbourhood. Naked, with an attempt to write in Arabic the words “Ali Baba Haram” = “Ali baba, forbidden” on their bodies. When quesitoned the leading officer said this was going to be the threathment they plann to give to "thieves. Further the soldier commented that the population themselves “asked” for this treatment. (I can tell you that this is a lie. This is such a shocking unthinkable barbaric thing to do in a Muslim country that no one would even come to the idea. Ther wer even women watching the whole humilating barbarism those men had to underog) One of the men said outraged that he was not a thief, that they humilated him and the others like animals and that he now planned to steal all the weapons he could get to kill every American that came in sight. That is in short what it is about. Salaam. Aldebaran. ---
**Author:** ![Petter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dbc845/32.png) [@Petter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petter)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/34 "2003-06-21T22:21:44Z")
Fairly biased and selective “translation” by **Aldebaran** there, but that’s par for the course based on his posting history. I’ll be happy to translate the full article if anyone’s interested. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/35 "2003-06-21T22:31:13Z")
There is no “biased” translation involved wht so ever. AZnd since I gafe o short summary, it is of course “selective” which is inherent on making a summary. And giving my comments clearly indicating it is my personal comment, is not being “biased” or “selective” but is telling what most likely the truth is. There is no interview with the local population to refute the comment of that soldier that they “asked” for this barbarism. Thus I give the comment you can expect those people would make on such ridiculous assumption. But of course… How silly of me… You are the one here who is informed about that country, the region, Islam and its laws and societies… Sorry, forgot. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/36 "2003-06-21T22:35:47Z")
Ah, I forget something : Now that you have profiled yourself as the great specialist in Iraq, the Middle East, Islam and Islamic societies, you surely can include in your translation what is wrong with the “Arabic” those soldiers wrote on those men’s bodies. Surprise me. We can write further in Arabic then a form our own little secret childish group. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/37 "2003-06-21T22:40:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Petter \* > \*\* > I’ll be happy to translate the full article if anyone’s interested. \*\* Please do. If you’re willing and all. It would be helpful if the relevant details were available so I could look for the story in an english language press. thanX **Petter** ---
**Author:** ![Petter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dbc845/32.png) [@Petter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petter)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/38 "2003-06-21T22:46:05Z")
**Aldebaran** I think you’re mistaking Great Debates with the Pit. I’d be more than happy to defer to your expertise in this area, if you would post your credentials and stop falsely representing my motives. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/39 "2003-06-21T22:51:44Z")
Never mind **Petter**. I found a copy of The Daily Mirror’s story @ the [Memory Hole](http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/stripped-iraqis.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817/40 "2003-06-21T22:55:13Z")
**Fairly biased and selective “translation” by Aldebaran there, but that’s par for the course based on his posting history.** \* That is your comment, isn’t it? You make a comment that has no other purpose then bring the childish attempts to attack me on that other board overhere. And what are you asking for exactly, that I scan and post my diplomes? I’m sorry but you must be a little bit out of your mind. Salaam. Aldebaran. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guerilla-war-is-iraq-really-over/182817.md?page=3)