# Guess what? You are not a "real" Engineer. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2002, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811 "2002-12-10T18:39:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/1 "2002-12-10T18:39:53Z")
In Canada, the CCPE (Canadian Council of Professional Engineers) [http://www.ccpe.ca/ccpe.cfm](http://www.ccpe.ca/ccpe.cfm) is taking action against individuals and companies incorrectly using the term “Engineer”. This includes people that are _Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer (MCSE)_ calling themselves “Engineers.” The title “Engineer” is protected by law in Canada from the individual provinces and territories. From the Alberta act [http://www.apegga.com/aboutapegga/theact.html](http://www.apegga.com/aboutapegga/theact.html) > [@](#): > > Exclusive use of name engineer > > 3(1) No individual, corporation, partnership or other entity, except a professional engineer, licensee or permit holder entitled to engage in the practice of engineering, shall > > (a) use > > (i) the title “professional engineer”, the abbreviation “P.Eng.” or any other abbreviation of that title, or > > \*\*(ii) the word “engineer” in combination with any other name, title, description, letter, symbol or abbreviation that represents expressly or by implication that he is a professional engineer, licensee or permit holder, or \*\* > > (b) represent or hold out, expressly or by implication, that > > (i) he is entitled to engage in the practice of engineering, or > > (ii) he is a professional engineer, licensee or permit holder. Bolding mine. Other provinces have similar legislation. So, basically what is happening is this. The CCPE has asked Microsoft to cease using the title “Engineer”. Microsoft at first agreed and told its MCSE holders to use only the _designation_ MCSE rather than the full designation (with the actual title “Engineer”). This was done to (at least partially) comply with Canadian provincial law. In July of this year, Microsoft reversed it decision. It felt that the MCSE designation would be _less valuable_ to its Canadian holders, relative to their counterparts in the rest of the world, if they cannot use the full designation with the actual term “Engineer”. So, it looks like they’ll probably be going to court. The licencing bodies are also looking at taking out copyrights on the terms. As a side, You have the title “Locomotive Engineers” given to the people that “drive” trains. However, I the few that I know (My Stepfather for one) have never called themselves “Engineers.” However, you very often have MCSE holders calling themselves “Engineers.” According to the CCPE, this is the crux of the issue… The _use_ of the title. Thoughts? Any similar guarding of the title “Engineer” in other countries? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/2 "2002-12-10T18:47:23Z")
None really in the States, if the “e” is lower-case, that is. There are protections against people representing themselves to be licensed Professional Engineers, and doing the work limited to them (public works, mainly), though. Otherwise, we have sanitation engineers (garbagemen), domestic engineers (housekeepers), operating engineers (machine drivers) … My favorite example is a news article I once saw about a local grocery store that employed a “mentally handicapped” man as a (are you ready?) Cart Retrieval Engineer. It is to weep. The currency cannot be devalued more than that. But in actuality, the context makes it apparent when we real engineers are involved, and I don’t know of anybody who gets worked up over it. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/3 "2002-12-10T18:51:50Z")
I don’t know what crawled up the CCPE’s exhaust pipe and died. The word “engineer” conveys in good faith just what MCSE’s can (read: should be able to) do. If you know the innermost workings of a complicated and highly technical system and can maintain & service it, you’re an engineer as far as the spirit of the word is concerned. As long as you have a qualifier prefixed (i.e. what kind of engineer are you?), I don’t see what the big deal is. \ OTOH, if you call yourself a Cart Retrieval Engineer, you’re just asking to get laughed at. ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/4 "2002-12-10T19:29:09Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t know what crawled up the CCPE’s exhaust pipe and died. Well, I suppose since its actually specified by law in Canada whom can rightfully call themselves an _Engineer_. It isn’t up to individuals or coperations to decide what the _spirit_ word is, its up the the CCPE and provincial associations to enforce it. ---
**Author:** ![ScoobyTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@ScoobyTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScoobyTX)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/5 "2002-12-10T19:53:20Z")
It’s also an issue in the US- Software Engineering is one discipline of many in which a person can be licensed as a Professional Engineer. All of the states have laws restricting the offer of engineering services to the public by unlicensed persons. A person with MCSE on their business card offering consulting services is violating the law. ScoobyTX, P.E. (licensed in Texas in Mechanical Engineering) ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/6 "2002-12-10T20:35:17Z")
No shit? You can actually be a licensed P.E. in Software engineering? So what tasks are licensed software engineers qualifiied to do that unlicensed ones aren’t? The mind boggles… ---
**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/7 "2002-12-10T20:40:33Z")
I go through this pretty regularly, I work in the oilfield (in the U.S.) where several professions use the term “engineer” (including mine) and every couple of years this comes up and it goes away in a couple of months, if you want to find a “licensed certified engineer” they can normally be found in a food service business somewhere because while they were in school I was here getting experience and experience means more (in most industries, out here any way) when it comes to hiring time, I also am referred to as a “geologist” but I do not have a geology degree (I do have 9 years of experience working as a “geologist”), now I wholeheartedly agree that if someone is misrepresenting themselves as an “Engineer” (claiming to be licensed and such) and I was an Engineer, I would be extremely pissed. unclviny ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/8 "2002-12-10T20:55:00Z")
I honestly don’t see why it should be legally required that only “real” engineers be able to refer to themselves as such. As long as people don’t misrepresent what licenses and degrees they have, I think they should be able to call themselves what they want. Wanna call yourself a sanitation engineer? Go for it (and while you’re at it, get a clue). Right now, I’m eating ramen - if I want to be a Noodle Engineer, so be it. Commence laughing. Really, if someone hires someone for a job based solely on the fact that they call themselves an engineer, they deserve to wind up with Gumpy the Cart Retreival Engineer. Most competent people will actually check qualifications. And considering the definition of engineering: “The application of scientific and mathematical principles to practical ends such as the design, manufacture, and operation of efficient and economical structures, machines, processes, and systems.” …the discipline is pretty loosely designated. C’mon, let people call themselves what they want, and apply mockery as needed. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/9 "2002-12-10T21:01:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ScoobyTX \* > \*\*It’s also an issue in the US- Software Engineering is one discipline of many in which a person can be licensed as a Professional Engineer. All of the states have laws restricting the offer of engineering services to the public by unlicensed persons. > > A person with MCSE on their business card offering consulting services is violating the law. > > ScoobyTX, P.E. (licensed in Texas in Mechanical Engineering) \*\* Since when, exactly, is Software Engineering licesened as actual engineering in any state in the U.S.? I can remember getting extremely irritated when some auto mechanics tried to form a splinter union that they wanted to call the “Something Something Mechanical Engineers Something”. As I recall ASME pitched a fit, and they changed the name. None of this crap matters. People call themselves “engineers” all the time. Does anybody remember the push to change “housewife” to “home maintenance engineer?” Thankfully, we eventually settled on “homemaker,” which has the twin advantages of being gender-neutral and reasonably accurate. “Engineer” as a title just doesn’t carry any prestige anymore, because it’s been co-opted by janitors and garbagemen. We don’t have to like it, but we do have to live with it. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/10 "2002-12-10T21:04:29Z")
Wow. I just re-read my post, and it really makes me sound bitter. Maybe I am. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/11 "2002-12-10T21:13:07Z")
Honestly, I don’t get what the fuss is. I mean, does the guy have the training for the job, or not? If I’m building a house or a bridge, I’m going to hire a Civil or Structural Engineer. I won’t hire an Electrical Engineer. If I’m building a cable decoder box that has a lot of integrated circuits, I’m going to hire an EE. Not a Civil Engineer. If I have a staff that doesn’t know how to use or maintain their PCs, I’m going to hire a MCSE. Not a Structural or Electrical Engineer. ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/12 "2002-12-10T21:43:48Z")
Another way to look at it is this. A “Professional Engineer” is (or at least, usually is) a very respected title. You usually have at least 4 years of post-secondary education, and another 4 years of on the job training while you article (EIT) to be a P.Eng. It carries weight with its associated credibilty, similar to how being an MD lends credibility. You also take a professional oath and are held accountable for anything showing your seal. In Canada, a P.Eng has enough credibility that they can be a guarrantor for legal documents, such as a passport. From what I understand you can get an MCSE by passing a test. Although, I am not saying its an _easy_ test (I have no idea). I cannot get a B.Sc simply by going to Harvard University and just ask “to take the final” for the associated subjects. It _appears_ to be a credibility issue with the title. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/13 "2002-12-10T21:50:50Z")
Counting down the seconds until Anthracite shows up… Actually I haven’t seen much of her around here lately. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/14 "2002-12-10T21:58:33Z")
I’m also curious as to what a licensed software engineer can do that I can’t. And I can’t wait to hear what **Anthracite** has to say. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/15 "2002-12-10T22:03:32Z")
Hey, I’ve got one for you, **Exgineer**. One day back when I was in school, I brought my housemates over for dinner, including one who was studying to be an aerospace engineer. I figured he’d hit it off pretty well with my father, who used to help design ICBMs, among many other similar things. Well, they did get along okay for awhile, until somewhere along the way my father mentioned he was an M.E. “You’re a _Mechanical_ Engineer?” asked my housemate. “How did you get into rockets?” “Well,” growled my old man, “_someone_ had to invent the goddamned field.” Okay, enough with the stories. As a guy who seriously tried–and egregiously failed–to follow in the footsteps of my father, my grandfather, and my uncle as an M.E., I have at least some insight into the enormous time and effort which engineering students devote to the study of their profession. When I compare that time and effort to [$875 worth of tests](http://www.mcsepracticeexam.com/?page=testimonials&ID=1)–which need only be passed without any required coursework–and I think I begin to understand **Exgineer** ’s bitterness, and Canada’s point. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/16 "2002-12-10T22:09:18Z")
All of those asserting that this isn’t a big deal, would you have the same reaction if someone involved in computer maintenance started holding him/herself out as “Professor” or “Doctor”? Or would you think that the guy is claiming greater credentials than he actually has, and is likely defrauding you? Engineer is a title that denotes (not connotes) particular education and training. Self-evidently, the term engineer has a meaning that has value, because it is associated in the public mind that particular education and training. If it did not, Microsoft wouldn’t want its people to be called engineers, **because they wouldn’t gain any benefit from it.** But they fight for it, because they gain a benefit from it. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/17 "2002-12-10T22:20:24Z")
We’ve talked about this issue a good deal here. IANAE, but I always felt that what makes this issue so contentious is that there’s no “good” title “below” engineer for those who are technically proficient, and do engineering type work, but have not passed the license exam. Let’s say you go to MIT and get a BSEE. Then you go to work for Atlantic Bell’s engineering department. Most people would call you an engineer, although maybe not a Professional Engineer. If you can’t be called an engineer, what can you be called? A Dilbert? A phone-company-employee-who-mastered-all-that-difficult-math-but-still-can’t-call-himself-an-engineer-because-yadda-yadda-yadda? A Technical Nurse (going along with the idea that P.E.s are like MD’S)? Not to deprecate the level of accomplishment represented by P.E.'s. But if I were making the rules, I’d say that P.E.'s ought to have a “better”, or higher title than Engineer, and leave that title to those who also do advanced technical work, but have not passed the exam. Just my $.02 ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/18 "2002-12-10T22:23:34Z")
Sua, isn’t the difference between a licenced and an unlicenced profession that a licenced profession can be sued for malpractice? I.e., doctors, lawyers, and engineers? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/19 "2002-12-10T22:30:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElJeffe \* > I honestly don’t see why it should be legally required that only “real” engineers be able to refer to themselves as such. As long as people don’t misrepresent what licenses and degrees they have, I think they should be able to call themselves what they want. It matters and yet it doesn’t. “Engineer” is becoming one of those overused terms just like “consultant” or “analyst”. Yet everyone knows what the job really means: MSCE - The IT guy Financial Advisor - A stockbroker/insurance salesman Sanitation engineer - The garbageman Everyone wants their stupid job to sound more important than it is. ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/20 "2002-12-10T22:41:47Z")
> [@](#): > > If you can’t be called an engineer, what can you be called? If you have a bachelor and you are an articling Engineer (but not there yet) would be called an “EIT” Engineering In Training. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811.md?page=2)