# Guess what? You are not a "real" Engineer. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2002, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811 "2002-12-10T18:39:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/61 "2002-12-11T06:51:56Z")
Well, Bill is fighting it in court. Bill has more money and lawyers than all of Canada. Bill has proven that he is not acountable to anybodys laws, because of the above. Maybe Canada is that much less corrupt than the US, but I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/62 "2002-12-11T13:07:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > **Oh, really? That’s funny, typically a P.E. means a hell of a lot more salary and more job opportunities, at least in my brief decade of experience. But it’s always nice to see engineers cast as unhireable overtrained “kids” who haven’t paid their dues… :rolleyes:** I was telling you about my experiences, most of the “engineers” (I guess the correct term is E.I.T, but I had never heard that before this thread) that I see are fresh out of school but most “just squeaked by” getting out of (in most people’s opinions, a “diploma factory”) school and from what I have seen Engineering is so competitive that you must have an advanced degree or you must do something to distinguish yourself in (a highly regarded) school, so I guess I see a disporportionate number of bitter, unemployable (in “their field”) kids (all that I have seen were young) and over the years (only 9 in my industry) I have seen a LOT of these folks bail out of my line of work because “it’s not in my field” and end up in the food service industry because they got hungry looking for that job “in their field” , BTW, I am sorry for whatever has made you sound so bitter, I hope things get better for you real soon. unclviny ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/63 "2002-12-11T14:33:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enginerd \* > \*\*This isn’t strictly true. In civil engineering, at least, every drawing that is used in the construction process is signed and stamped by a registered (licensed) engineer. What that stamp signifies is that the project was designed under the “responsible charge” of that engineer. The company obviously has their reputation on the line with each project, but the ultimate responsibility, both ethically and legally, is on the certifying engineer. The fact that he or she works for a corporation doesn’t make a difference. \*\* But can it sometimes happen that the engineering work that went into those drawings is done by assistants who aren’t licensed, but generally work and practice as engineers, as that word is understood by the public?\* The registered engineer in your example is certainly responsible for the final outcome, but does he or she have to do all the related work? \*here again, I emphasize that I think the “public’s” concept of an engineer is someone who has passed at least a bachelor’s degree in technical work and makes their living doing that. I _don’t_ think the average person is fooled by such abuses as “sanitation engineer” or “shopping cart retrieval engineer”. ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/64 "2002-12-11T14:41:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by unclviny \* > **I was telling you about my experiences, most of the “engineers” (I guess the correct term is E.I.T, but I had never heard that before this thread) that I see are fresh out of school but most “just squeaked by” getting out of (in most people’s opinions, a “diploma factory”) school** I’ve never heard of an accredited university called a “Diploma Factory” before. > [@](#): > > \*\*and from what I have seen Engineering is so competitive that you must have an advanced degree or you must do something to distinguish yourself in (a highly regarded) school, so I guess I see a disporportionate number of bitter, unemployable (in “their field”) kids (all that I have seen were young) and over the years (only 9 in my industry) I have seen a LOT of these folks bail out of my line of work because “it’s not in my field” and end up in the food service industry because they got hungry looking for that job “in their field” , BTW, I am sorry for whatever has made you sound so bitter, I hope things get better for you real soon. > > unclviny \*\* People end up unemployed all the time and wait for “something better” that never comes around. Being an Engineer isn’t a guarrantee to a “great” job, but it helps. You know, getting “out of school” and getting _real world experience_ is exactly the same thing that people dropped out of high-school said as reasoning. Sure, it _may_ be legit but it probably isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/65 "2002-12-11T14:50:30Z")
I hold a degree in Computer Engineering but have not yet been licnesed as a P.E. This is primarily because I have not found a P.E. specification that fits exactly what it is I do. However, if I have to hear someone ask me one more time ‘So, Computer Engineering, that’s like MCSE right?’, I am going to go through the nearest roof. I spent four years of intense effort in an extremely specialized degree program where I was expected to learn every nuance of software, hardware and networks. I didn’t learn ‘This is a motherboard. This is a video card. This is how you put a video card on a motherboard.’ in my hardware studies as many people who are not familiar with the term Computer Engineer think. No, I learned to design processors. To write and create and synthesize in silicon the digital logic that makes a computer work. I am not an MCSE, I don’t want to be asked if I am an MCSE because some jackass got the impression that an MCSE is a ‘real’ engineer. I also don’t want someone to ask me why on earth I went to a university for four years to study Computer Engineering when ‘it’s only seven tests, and they have those book things.’ That’s what the MCSE and other such ‘engineer’ certifications have done. They’ve made people see the words ‘computer’ and ‘engineer’ referring to the same person and think that they’re a company trained test taker. I really wish they were prohibited from using the word engineer. It’s horrid to have to go somewhere and explain the difference between myself and an MCSE because some fool decided to use the word ‘engineer’ for the prestige. I don’t deal with setting up and connecting together prepackaged entities and lack the ability to follow the digital logic of the whole thing. My life is the digital logic. And I resent like hell that people think I’m just an ‘Install Windows XP, set up DHCP server, plug these things together’ person because MS has co-opted the word ‘engineer’. Engineer used to mean something to people, now it means I have to explain to everyone I speak to exactly what it is a Computer Engineer is. Gr. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/66 "2002-12-11T14:51:27Z")
bdgr…Systems Analyst. Microsoft (and Novell) could have used the term Systems Analyst. It is, after all, what we do. And to rename the certification MCSA would not be that difficult. Engineers have been complaining about his for years (and I believe rightly so, I work with Real Engineers). Now, I know a few CCIEs who have EE backgrounds. The strange thing here is that Novell grabbed the term engineer. Novell has (and has alway had) absolutely clueless marketing - this is simply another example. That Microsoft would use the same term is endlessly amusing - especially since Microsoft initiated their certification years later, when Novell had already been slammed for using the word engineer. Novell may have been stupid and clueless (its a corporate fault of theirs), Microsoft should have known better. (BTW, I wish someone would have clued fresh minted MCSEs in to the fact that no one pays $80,000 to a kid with a high school degree, an MCSE and a year of experience as a hardware tech. Would have saved me a lot of time. Now they can’t get jobs and the expectations are lower, but I’m not interviewing them anymore, thank God). I’d have less problem with IT certifications if they all required lab work (like the CCIE or Novell’s Directory Engineer) and job experience prior to certification, and maybe even - hey! get this! a college degree. And maybe some body controlling the certification process that isn’t the vendor. Anyone with trancender and a memory can pass those damn tests - especially the MS ones (its a little harder to find cram software for the Novell or Cisco tests, so you might actually have to read a book). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/67 "2002-12-11T14:58:53Z")
There are a lot more kinds of engineers than Civil Engineers. Just to clarify the significance of the PE license in the US: It depends entirely on the field you’re working in. If you’re working on construction, civil works, or anything involving public health, safety, or property, then generally a PE license is not only valuable but absolutely required. Anywhere else, though, it’s just resume filler that impresses nobody in the field. In aerospace, for instance, some people have them, some don’t, and it doesn’t make a bit of difference. The company-issued title of Engineer is usually limited to people with 4-year degrees in the field. There are many more professions that don’t make good, light, entertaining TV shows, either, but also don’t get good cable or PBS shows like engineering often _does_. TLC and Discovery Channel get nothing but praise from me, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/68 "2002-12-11T15:00:59Z")
Slightly off-kilter, but worth a mention: The same issue has been covered with respect to professional titles in the UK, with ‘architect’ having to now be protected in law ([From here)](http://www.intstudy.com/articles/ec183a09.htm) > [@](#): > > In the United Kingdom the title of ‘Architect’ is protected by law, and to be able to use it one has to be registered with the Architects Registration Board Many people may be able to do the same job, produce drawings and administer construction contracts, but this does NOT mean they are architects. The title is an important, hard-fought for privilege (7+ years training) and should not be used lightly, merely because someone _feels_ they are qualified enough. ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/69 "2002-12-11T15:06:58Z")
Yes, **Aro** , many other professions are protected. Another one off the top of my head (here in Alberta, at least) is _Land Surveyor_. Just because you are going out and using the gear and “surveying” doesn’t make you a _Land Surveyor_. You may be a Party Chief, you may be a Chainman/helper, but you’re not a “Land Surveyor.” ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/70 "2002-12-11T15:24:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\*I’ve spoken out in the past here as to why the term “Engineer” should be reserved for those who are licensed professional engineers, and I am tired of being shouted down. There’s almost no point. > > The Engineering profession is degraded beyond belief when someone can legally call themselves a “pizza engineer” or “sanitation engineer” on a job title. And an MSCE is not an Engineer. They may be a highly trained, intelligent, very specialized person who posseses invaluable knowledge. But they are not an Engineer. I don’t know why this is so hard. > \*\* But nobody seriously equates a pizza engineer with what you do. At least nobody who matters! \*\* > [@](#): > > Thankfully, dictionaries don’t specify what an Engineer or Engineering is. In fact, dictionaries don’t specify anything - they try to show the common contemporary usage of a word. > Oh, really? That’s funny, typically a P.E. means a hell of a lot more salary and more job opportunities, at least in my brief decade of experience. > > \*\* So by your own statement you are being amply rewarded for your P.E. license. And your problem is? \*\* > [@](#): > > But it’s always nice to see engineers cast as unhireable overtrained “kids” who haven’t paid their dues… :rolleyes: > But the thing is that people _can_ and _do_ misrepresent themselves as to their Engineering degree and license. My Kansas State Board of Technical Professions newsletter has a whole page each issue of court cases of secretaries stamping design drawings, high-school dropouts certifying bridges, and a whole cadre of random shmoes masquerading as architects. > Whose “definition” of engineering is that? What legal basis does it have? You could make an equally sweeping definition of “medicine” to include that any mother who bandages a skinned knee on a child is now a “physician”.\*\* \*\* [/quote] Oh, please. No one’s suggesting that. As I said, I agree the title engineer is abused in cases like that of the cart retrieval engineer, but the thing is, no one’s taken in by that. I don’t know the stories behind your examples above, like secretaries stamping design documents. Did they make the designs and hold themselves out as engineers? Then that would be a problem. But if their P.E. bosses just said, “here’s my seal, please seal all these designs that I have just approved”, then I don’t see the problem. \*\* > [@](#): > > In fact, IIRC, in all 50 States advertising yourself a “Professional Engineer” to the Public when you are not will get you fined and/or jailed if a complaint is made. > > But then again - I expect to hear the same bullshit as always every time this issue comes up, either here or IRL. Typically, the people who are opposed to restricting the legal term “Engineer” are those who were too fucking stupid to get a degree or pass the P.E., did not have the qualifications to even take the exam, are complete dribbling idiots - or else are highly trained/degreed, intelligent, and experienced and competant individuals who feel that they need a title to increase their sense of self-worth by claiming a title with potential legal ramifications that they should not be using. > \*\* I’m not defending the practice of misrepresentation, but I hold out that there is a factor of self correction here. If I want a power plant designed, I’ll hire you or someone similar, not a Customer Service Engineer or a pizza engineer. I know that, and I don’t even work for the power company. Fucking stupid? Dribbling idiots? Look, there are many people out there who make a lot of the technology in the world happen without being P.E.'s. And they may also lack the right kind of degree for other reasons besides stupidity. And I wouldn’t even call the shopping cart retrieval engineer an idiot, even if I do think that’s an egregious abuse of the title. \*\* > [@](#): > > Or they have an axe to grind. To use a trite expression, “Engineers are the n\*\*\*\*r of the professional world.” Few _in my direct personal experience in the Profession_ are more hostile to Engineers and Engineering as a profession than lawyers and journalists, and these people typically go out of their way to belittle and demean the Profession, all under the guise of “what’s the big deal” and “chill out, d00d3”. > \*\* Does anyone else see this? Cause I sure don’t. \*\* > [@](#): > > As to how the Media treats Engineers - feh. Every fucking season there’s innumerable Cop shows, Lawyer shows, Doctor shows - but Engineer shows? No, thank you. And _Star Trek_ does not fucking count. > > And it’s not even that Engineering is just “too boring” to put on TV. I know, and have lived with _real_ Doctors and Lawyers, and their lives and work were/are a whole freaking lot more boring than mine. There is a definite bias, IMO, against Engineers in some parts of society. And in other parts - well shit. It seems that everyone wants the title, but no one wants to do the fucking work. > > But YMMV, as always. > > So as I put the final touches on my second Engineering degree, I really wonder why I bothered most of the time. So much work - Engineering is one of the absolute most difficult degree programs at the BS and MS level, thank you - and so much time spent working 60-hour weeks, then sitting for two full-day exams, and the woman-weeks of study that went into those - all so someone from my old High School can tell me how he’s an Engineer too - a “Day Care Services Engineer”. I shit you not - he works at a daycare center. He mixes Kool-Aid and changes diapers. > > He’s my “contemporary” in the field. > \*\* Arrrgghh, i won’t say anything. No wait, yes I will. To make sure that he doesn’t try to put anything over, you could turn him in. Just in case someone out there is fooled… \*\* > [@](#): > > Una, cranky, bitter, and angry P.E. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/71 "2002-12-11T15:37:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\*I’ve spoken out in the past here as to why the term “Engineer” should be reserved for those who are licensed professional engineers, and I am tired of being shouted down. There’s almost no point. > > The Engineering profession is degraded beyond belief when someone can legally call themselves a “pizza engineer” or “sanitation engineer” on a job title. And an MSCE is not an Engineer. They may be a highly trained, intelligent, very specialized person who posseses invaluable knowledge. But they are not an Engineer. I don’t know why this is so hard.\*\* I would totally agree with you, if there were a widely accepted term for somebody in my position (no graduate degree, new in the field, but does design things). ---
**Author:** ![ScoobyTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@ScoobyTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScoobyTX)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/72 "2002-12-11T15:50:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by javaman \* > **I don’t know the stories behind your examples above, like secretaries stamping design documents. Did they make the designs and hold themselves out as engineers? Then that would be a problem. But if their P.E. bosses just said, “here’s my seal, please seal all these designs that I have just approved”, then I don’t see the problem.** If the “P.E. bosses” did that, it would be a good way to lose their license. If they are too lazy to sign/seal the drawings themselves, then they are obviously too lazy to be reviewing the work thoroughly. BTW, there is no legal problem with the secretary (or anyone else working under the direct supervision of the engineer of record) to do all of the pertinent design work- as long as the engineer reviews and accepts responsibility for the work. That’s how E.I.T.s get the four or more years of progressively responsible design and/or analytical experience required to be allowed to sit for the exam and be licensed. on preview- **ultrafilter** , the widely accepted term for a non-engineer who “designs things” is “designer.” ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/73 "2002-12-11T16:01:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\*I I spent four years of intense effort in an extremely specialized degree program where I was expected to learn every nuance of software, hardware and networks. I didn’t learn ‘This is a motherboard. This is a video card. This is how you put a video card on a motherboard.’ in my hardware studies as many people who are not familiar with the term Computer Engineer think. \ \*\* MCSE test have nothing to do with assembling a computer, again, its more about systems design and administration. But I agree with you, I hate the fact that someone without a clue as to what they are doing can get a stack of Testkiller books, memorize them, and get a cert. I hate that half the help desk people I meet have an MCSE. Like I said earlier, I wouldnt have even gotten one if I hadnt been forced to by my boss. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/74 "2002-12-11T16:15:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dangerosa \* > \*_bdgr…Systems Analyst. Microsoft (and Novell) could have used the term Systems Analyst. \*_ Not anymore. Systems Analyst is now a help desk person. Sometimes a field Tech. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/75 "2002-12-11T16:35:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by javaman \* > **Fucking stupid? Dribbling idiots? Look, there are many people out there who make a lot of the technology in the world happen without being P.E.'s. And they may also lack the right kind of degree for other reasons besides stupidity. And I wouldn’t even call the shopping cart retrieval engineer an idiot, even if I do think that’s an egregious abuse of the title.** You missed this part: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > **…or else are highly trained/degreed, intelligent, and experienced and competant individuals…** ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/76 "2002-12-11T17:36:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bdgr \* > \*\*Not anymore. Systems Analyst is now a help desk person. Sometimes a field Tech. \*\* Sure, but _Systems Analyst_ is not a legally protected title. They could then name them, oh, I dunno, Help Desk Specialist or something like that. At least it would be accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/77 "2002-12-11T19:00:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\*You missed this part: \*\* ## (quoting quotes of quotes doesn’t seem to work) ## Originally posted by Anthracite …or else are highly trained/degreed, intelligent, and experienced and competant individuals… Point conceded. If by “dribbling idiots” or “fucking stupid” you mean pizza delivery engineers (actually heard on a car commercial, though it was tongue-in-cheek), or our poor friend the cart retrieval engineer, I agree with your point in principle, though I wouldn’t put it that way. Sometimes you just have to learn about people by what they say and do. We don’t walk around with our job titles, licenses, and degrees hanging around our necks. But by your own statements, here and in other threads, you have achieved an enviable level of professional success and recognition. And you’re one of the most valued Dopers. This, to my mind, is the reward for all your effort, not a job title. You can file complaints about the casual abuse of the title “engineer”. But my guess is that unless that abuse is egregious, involving deliberate acts of deception that endanger the public, I doubt if the justice system would follow it through. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/78 "2002-12-11T19:34:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by javaman \* > **If by “dribbling idiots” or “fucking stupid” you mean pizza delivery engineers (actually heard on a car commercial, though it was tongue-in-cheek), or our poor friend the cart retrieval engineer, I agree with your point in principle, though I wouldn’t put it that way.** I mean people like: - Ex co-worker 1, who claimed to have overslept FOUR TIMES IN A ROW, and thus missed the PE exam all four times, over two years. On the fifth time, where he did make it in, he got up and left at noon - skipping the entire afternoon half of the exam - because, even though he had studied for it for 5 sittings total, and was in the actual exam, and taking it, somehow thought that the afternoon section was “optional”. He never made the sixth time, as he was fired for gross incompetance, and went to work at a Sears in the hardware section. - Ex co-worker 2, who had a Masters Degree in ME from a foreign country, reputedly specializing in Thermodynamics, yet was so stupid they could not do a heat balance on an open feedwater heater, did not understand the advanced concepts of “enthalpy” and “entropy”, and could not calculate the third leg of a right triangle, given two sides and two angles. She was fired too, and went to a competitor. Who fired her before the 90-day trial. So she went back to school to get her MBA. Thankfully, there is no third example. There are people with engineering degrees who are just plain stupid, or just too flighty or careless to be amenable to the focused analysis of design and consulting. Are they bad people? Evil people? People without value or important skills? People who you should mock? **Of course not.** But they shouldn’t be Engineers, either. ---
**Author:** ![jsrustad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a698b9/32.png) [@jsrustad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsrustad)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/79 "2002-12-11T19:53:06Z")
Where I work the title for someone doing the same work as a engineer but without a degree is “Engineering Analyst”. The company seems to define “engineer” as someone with a bachelor’s degree in engineering. However, we do have some folks with non-engineering degrees that have the title “engineer”. ---
**Author:** ![tourbot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@tourbot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tourbot)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811/80 "2002-12-11T22:00:10Z")
Wait a minute. Fred goes to college for four years, studies Electrical Engineering, and the college is allowed to present them with Bachelor of Engineering degree. Fred gets a job, and when he appears on Jeopardy, Alex Trebek introduces Fred as “an engineer from Redmond”. Now I’ll grant you, if he introduces Steve the MCSE who works at the help desk as “an engineer from Provo”, then something ain’t right. But from what you’re saying, Fred isn’t “legally” an engineer, but I’ll bet that’s what 80+% of the population will call him. I’ll bet a larger percentage than that don’t know that there even is any such thing as a PE. I have never seen MCSE’s confused for a job title. I don’t see how it’s any different from a college granting someone a Bachelors degree as an engineer. So lets see charges pressed against all the colleges that do this, then go after Microsoft, Novell, and Cisco. It also occurs to me that MS et al. are using the term as it is commonly understood and it is the PE’s who need to come up with a differentiating term. Oh, wait. They have. The legal term (or so I gather from this thread) is Professional Engineer. Notice that nowhere does MS et al. use this term. So, what was the argument again? -Mike, the CNE [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-what-you-are-not-a-real-engineer/141811.md?page=5)