# Guess who's less bigoted than the USA? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2006, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442 "2006-11-14T21:33:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/41 "2006-11-15T22:38:47Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] I can’t tell you how you should feel, but I can tell you how I feel. I feel frustrated- so many Americans are so opposed to same-sex marriage for reasons that make no sense to me, and some of those reasons I’ve heard offend me deeply. I’ve yet to hear an argument against same-sex marriage that does make sense to me. The ones I find offensive are ones like saying we shouldn’t allow it because the Bible disapproves of homosexuality (while lots of other things the Bible disapproves of are legal), or the argument that the purpose of marriage is to produce children (I think marriage is much more significant than that). At the same time, I feel hopeful- if South Africa can progress from what it was like 20 years ago to legalizing same-sex marriage, maybe there’s hope for a similar change of attitudes in the US. [/QUOTE] Can’t argue with any of that. But I would note that SSM is gaining acceptance in the US, not losing acceptance-- the recent state ballot measures notwithstanding. My own state, CA, actually passed legislation legalizing SSM although Arnold vetoed it. Still, who would have predicted even 5 years ago that a state would vote in favor of SSM in the legislature? The tide is turning, and change is inevitable. SSM polls poorly in older adults, but quite favorably in younger adults. It’s just going to take time. And in the meantime, the rights of gays are expanding, even if not as quickly as we would like. > [@](#): > > But those people do vote on issues that affect us. Creationists get elected to school boards, which affects what is taught in public schools. A local school board election can have ripple effects beyond the district, too, because textbook publishers try to make sure their textbooks are suitable for as many states and districts as possible. They elect officials who have some say in how money for scientific research is allocated. But unlike SSM, those folks are being defeated left and right, not only in the courts, but in the school boards and legislatures. If Kansas can throw the creationist bums out, any state can. Not mentioned in this thread yet was the recent victory in SD for those who want to keep abortion legal. SD is pretty darn conservative state, too. I guess I see the glass not only half full rather than half empty, but being fulled rather than drained. But this is the pit, so I guess we’re supposed to look at the half empty part. Fuck you, America-- give gays the same rights they have in South Africa!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/42 "2006-11-15T22:44:13Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] the rights of gays are expanding, even if not as quickly as we would like. But this is the pit, so I guess we’re supposed to look at the half empty part. Fuck you, America-- give gays the same rights they have in South Africa!! 😉 [/QUOTE] Not “fuck you, America”- “hurry the fuck up and get with the 21st century, America.” I agree with your assessment that the rights of gays are expanding, not contracting, but I’m frustrated by the slow pace at which that is going. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/43 "2006-11-15T23:02:45Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Only 37% of Americans favor teaching Creationism istead of Evolution.\ [/QUOTE] That’s funny to me - you say “only 37%,” and I look at it and think, “Holy crap, 37%?!? Yikes!” That’s over one in three people who favour Creationism over Evolution. To me, that’s a scary high number. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2006, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/44 "2006-11-16T00:14:02Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Ah, a reasoned and eloquent response. [/QUOTE] Right up there with you saying we’re headed for Gay Death Camps. I mean, you and I have butted heads on the Iraq thing before, but for Fucks sake man, you don’t honestly think that the probably (WAG) 40% or more of the country that actively supports Gay rights and such are just going to go away? As for the brilliant statement on the Founding Fathers, well… while I don’t condone some of their practices, they were a product of their times. If you had been born and raised then, the odds are good you would have seen nothing wrong with their stances, in large part. Times change. But the fact remains that they threw off the shackles of a Monarchial society that said it was the will of god that one man be in charge until he died. Pretty bold steps to take. And, exactly when did ANYONE mention Iraq in here? Oh, right, nobody did. Except you. Anti-Birth Control and Anti-Abortion policies? What the Blue Fuck are you talking about? Any girl old enough to get her ass to a Planned Parenthood clinic can get birth control, often for free. And abortions are still legal. And that’s not gonna change anytime soon, barring activist judges. ---
**Author:** ![Slypork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2006, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/45 "2006-11-16T02:11:35Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] And of course the only possible alternative to dog-eat-dog Christian Capitalism is the Soviet Union. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] It’s called sarcasm. Look into it. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] You can’t have freedom of religion without freedom from religion; it’s impossible. As for the original colonists, they came to set up their own little religious tyrannies, and were misogynistc thieving slaveowning genocidal monsters. I’d never use them as a role model. [/QUOTE] No. Freedom of religion means > [@](#): > > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . You cannot be forced to practice a religion and you cannot be prevented from worshipping (or not). The original colonists were leaving countries that told them what and how to worship. Naturally, they brought their own beliefs with them. But Jefferson, _in the very first right in the very first Amendment_ said the government could not and would not interfere with our individual expression (or not) of our beliefs. As for the “misogynistc thieving slaveowning genocidal monsters” you have to look at the established roles of man vs woman and the economies at the time that found slavery practicable and acceptable. Theivery (I suppose you mean of Native American lands) and genocide (again against the Native Americans and, I gather, the slaves) again the idea of nation building and expansion set forth through Manifest Destiny put the settlers and colonists against whomever was in their way. Of course, looking back, it was wrong and insensitive but that was the culture and mind set and was accepted. When you were one year old you used to be quite content sitting in your shit. Should we be disgusted at you now because you didn’t know better back then? [QUOTE=Der Trihs] And of course, the United States is strictly run according to the Principles of Television. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] No, but if we were so run by the “Fundies”, as you call them and as you insist on saying, then those shows and entertainers would not be accepted and would not be promoted. They wouldn’t have gotten greenlighted and theperson proposing it would probably been kicked out on his ass. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] They and the rest of the government are the ones _doing_ it; of course it’s up to them. [/QUOTE] The governemtn is chosen by the people. If the citizens want leaders to make a change, then they have to push for and vote for leaders that will make the changes. It’s easy to talk the talk, but people let inertia keep them in place. Unless it is handed to them on a silver platter by Uncle Sugar, they won’t do anything about it. An amenedment can be added by popular vote. But if the people don’t push for it, nothing will happen. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Of course not. Like I said, America is dominated by Christian fundies, and was even back when the ERA was around; they just weren’t as strong. America is a Christian country, and the hatred of womankind is a central part of Christianity. As for the gays; since they made the mistake of coming out in a basically ChristoFundie country, I expect they will be dead or fled within 20 years. I believe we’ve passed the apex of gay rights in America, and are headed back to the days when they were imprisoned or killed. [/QUOTE] Please tell me this is a whoosh?!? “hatred of womankind is a central part of Christianity”!!! I’ve been a Christian (Catholic) for 41 years and nowhere in my life or in any church I have attended (5 different Catholic, along with attending Protestant, Lutheran, Baptist, Episcapalian, Seventh Day Advantist and bible study groups) have I ever heard those kinds of ideas espoused. And gays being killed or imprisoned within 20 years? WTF doesn’t even begin to come close to my astonishment. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] I bet you’d have opposed desegregation back when MLK was around. [/QUOTE] As I have said in other threads, my uncle was gay. He died in 1986 from what was then called ARC (Aids Related Complex). I support gay rights and always have. The will of the people pushed the government to end segregation or have you forgotten about the marches in Selma, Montgomery and DC? Enough people standing up together to tell their politicians how they think and eventually the politicians listen. It also helped to get us out of Viet Nam. Our government isn’t perfect. Our country isn’t perfect. But I will do everything I can to try to make it a better place because I believe in the ideals it was created with. I vote, I write to my legislators, I collect signatures on petitions. I volunteer my time and I work. It’s easy to sit in our homes and type about how crappy things are. You can piss and moan about how shitty things are. Or you can actually work to solve the problems. And apparently our country can’t be too bad if people are willing to risk their lives to come here. Vietnamese boat people, Cuban refugees making boats out of old cars, Mexicans cramming into trucks or running through deserts all are willing to die for a chance in our country. I don’t remember hearing about a group of Americans stuffing themselves into a cargo container, loaded onto a cargo ship and being carried across an ocean to become French, South African or Japanese citizens? ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2006, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/46 "2006-11-16T12:02:03Z")
**Wensleydale** and **Zerc** , howzit my chinas. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/47 "2006-11-16T16:40:26Z")
Most liberals in the United States are liberal only in their own living rooms, or at most on public message boards. Conservatives, on the other hand are mostly conservative at state party caucuses, local electoral events, national party caucuses, voter registration committees, funding drives, petition signing meetings, and every year, sometimes twice a year at the polls. We get exactly the government we want and deserve. If it is screwed up, it is all our fault. That’s democracy. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/48 "2006-11-17T04:44:23Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] It reminds me of a joke I made up while I was visiting Australia, but wasn’t brave enough to tell to anyone there: Why did Australia get settled by convicts, while America got settled by ultra-religious people? Because Australia got first choice. [/QUOTE] Nobody would have been offended. We’ve all heard it already. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/49 "2006-11-17T04:56:26Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] I’m sorry- I didn’t mean to say it is a symbol of bigotry _now_. But, when I was growing up in the 1980s, it was. You’ve gone from being worse than we were in terms of bigotry enshrined in law to much better than we are, which I think is amazing. I only wish my country could do the same in a comparable time frame. [/QUOTE] Don’t worry I have all the confidence in the world that we might very well be legalizing gay marriage in the next 25 years or so. Until then go to South Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/50 "2006-11-17T05:05:34Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] Not “fuck you, America”- “hurry the fuck up and get with the 21st century, America.” I agree with your assessment that the rights of gays are expanding, not contracting, but I’m frustrated by the slow pace at which that is going. [/QUOTE] How many countries have gay marriage? How many have civil unions? How many hae nothing of the sort? Give it time, eventually people will figure out that a gay couple living down the street in wedded bliss (which would indeed make gay marriage very different from straight marriages) is not going to make little Timmy decide to be gay and then most people won’t give a shit anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/51 "2006-11-17T05:24:00Z")
Would you rather be a gay person in the US or in South Africa? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/52 "2006-11-17T16:56:20Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] Would you rather be a gay person in the US or in South Africa? [/QUOTE] Hmm, hard choice. In America, I wouldn’t be allowed to marry in most of the nation, and Fundie idiots would think they could “cure teh gay”. In SA, I could marry, but run a very real chance of having some thugs bust in and give me a “necklace” [Necklacing - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing) [http://www.etext.org/Politics/BAD.brigade/BAD-Broadside-%233](http://www.etext.org/Politics/BAD.brigade/BAD-Broadside-%233) or maybe just beat us to death. Hmm, what to do, what to do. :dubious: Damn, hard choice, but I think I’d choose the USA. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/53 "2006-11-17T17:35:11Z")
[QUOTE=erie774] Enough people standing up together to tell their politicians how they think and eventually the politicians listen. It also helped to get us out of Viet Nam. [/QUOTE] :dubious: Maybe if you threaten to storm the castle with pitchforks and torches you can get some rights but otherwise, as far as I see, this is utter fantasy. The protests got us out of Vietnam? Really? They peaked in the 60s and the war went on for years and years; the anti-war candidates got destroyed in the elections and primaries. TPTB only stopped once they realized how useless it was, especially after exhausting so many options. Protests seemed to actually _harm_ their cause in the 21st century. It certainly didn’t do jack to the Iraq war (and there were huge protests in the U.S. and around the world in late 2002/early 03). Support for that war was extremely high despite the protests; it didn’t begin to fall until the public snapped back into reality. At least that’s my somewhat superficial take on it. Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Zerc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/82dd89/32.png) [@Zerc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zerc)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/54 "2006-11-17T19:32:49Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Hmm, hard choice. In America, I wouldn’t be allowed to marry in most of the nation, and Fundie idiots would think they could “cure teh gay”. In SA, I could marry, but run a very real chance of having some thugs bust in and give me a “necklace” [Necklacing - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing) [http://www.etext.org/Politics/BAD.brigade/BAD-Broadside-%233](http://www.etext.org/Politics/BAD.brigade/BAD-Broadside-%233) or maybe just beat us to death. Hmm, what to do, what to do. :dubious: Damn, hard choice, but I think I’d choose the USA. [/QUOTE] It seems that quite few people have been murdered in the USA for being gay too [http://www.holysmoke.org/fem/fem0385.htm](http://www.holysmoke.org/fem/fem0385.htm) > **[Logo TV](https://www.logotv.com)** > > As the first queer-focused commercial cable network, Logo TV is here to honor and celebrate the diverse world of LGBTQ+ culture with a wide range of shows, movies and more. [http://www.today.ucla.edu/1998/981028in.html](http://www.today.ucla.edu/1998/981028in.html) Maybe South Africa is not so bad after all ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/55 "2006-11-18T03:03:40Z")
Not too bad if you want to live on a fraction of the income of the average American, if you want to live under a government that seems to think tropical fruits are the cure for AIDS, where school teachers think having sex with their pupils is a job benefit, where the crime rate … Oh that’s right you were only talking about one news article, weren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Zerc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/82dd89/32.png) [@Zerc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zerc)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/56 "2006-11-18T06:50:09Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Hmm, hard choice. In America, I wouldn’t be allowed to marry in most of the nation, and Fundie idiots would think they could “cure teh gay”. In SA, I could marry, but run a very real chance of having some thugs bust in and give me a “necklace” [Necklacing - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing) [http://www.etext.org/Politics/BAD.brigade/BAD-Broadside-%233](http://www.etext.org/Politics/BAD.brigade/BAD-Broadside-%233) or maybe just beat us to death. Hmm, what to do, what to do. :dubious: Damn, hard choice, but I think I’d choose the USA. [/QUOTE] **DrDeth** while I may agree with what some of what **Paul in Saudi** said, the article about Necklacing Gays in South Africa appeared in 1991 so it is rather outdated. While many people in South Africa are intolerant of gays at least some progress is being made and I am not aware of people being necklaced for being gay. A recent poll at [http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click\_id=3018&poll\_id=341](http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=3018&poll_id=341) had 467 votes supporting the Civil Union Bill and 536 against. This should rather be showing 100% support but I suppose it’s a start. If you did come to South Africa and were assaulted it would more likely to be the result of a straightforward crime rather than gay bashing ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/57 "2006-11-18T12:39:02Z")
[QUOTE=mstay] :dubious: Maybe if you threaten to storm the castle with pitchforks and torches you can get some rights but otherwise, as far as I see, this is utter fantasy. The protests got us out of Vietnam? Really? They peaked in the 60s and the war went on for years and years; the anti-war candidates got destroyed in the elections and primaries. TPTB only stopped once they realized how useless it was, especially after exhausting so many options. Protests seemed to actually _harm_ their cause in the 21st century. It certainly didn’t do jack to the Iraq war (and there were huge protests in the U.S. and around the world in late 2002/early 03). Support for that war was extremely high despite the protests; it didn’t begin to fall until the public snapped back into reality. At least that’s my somewhat superficial take on it. Am I wrong? [/QUOTE] Hey- would you mind starting a GD thread about this? I think it would be very interesting. I thought the protesters in this current war came off looking like hippie wannabes, and nothing happened re: the war… ---
**Author:** ![Wensleydale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ce7236/32.png) [@Wensleydale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wensleydale)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/58 "2006-11-18T13:25:11Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] where school teachers think having sex with their pupils is a job benefit [/QUOTE] Don’t fucking generalise you asshole, the majority of teachers in this country are hard working and dedicated professionals who often work under extremely difficult conditions. You forgot to mention the president of the USA who decides to invade another country without going through the United Nations Security Council because he knows his resolution would have been defeated. And look how wonderful that turned out. At least he was justified, look at all the WMD they found, oh wait they didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/59 "2006-11-18T16:15:51Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] Not too bad if you want to live on a fraction of the income of the average American [/QUOTE] Which says what about SA’s attitude towards homosexuality? > [@](#): > > where school teachers think having sex with their pupils is a job benefit So a teacher has never slept with a student in the US? That’s so cool! :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > where the crime rate … Where the rate of incarceration… Every country has its plus and cons. While I don’t agree that this specific law measures SA’s _general bigotisity_, it says a lot about their attitude towards homosexuality. From my point of view it looks better than the US (and a whole lot better than my country, even if I have never in 36 years heard of anyone being gay-bashed or killed because him or her was gay). ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442/60 "2006-11-18T16:19:36Z")
So all in all, would it be better to be a gay person in the US or in South Africa? Looking at all the facts, not just one aspect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guess-whos-less-bigoted-than-the-usa/380442.md?page=4)