# Guitar Question - Should I always use a C/G instead of a C chord? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 10, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268 "2014-08-10T21:54:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/41 "2014-08-14T20:32:00Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I’ve seen a D played 254232 (index finger barring across the 2nd fret and then a 3 finger C bumped down a finger, so to speak) by George Harrison and John Lennon. I’ve tried it and determined that unless you’re going to or from a Bm or a G, it’s not worth the bother. Reggae chord! (I have seen a bunch of Reggae players do that - helped with the upstroke-y chunka rhythm, I guess…) ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/42 "2014-08-14T22:45:39Z")
Well, come to think of it, that position is useful for the Eb’s in the intro to “If I Fell”. And if you learn it for an Eb, why not use it for other chords too? And I figure once you’ve mastered that position and got the muscle memory going for it, it’s not a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/43 "2014-08-15T02:46:46Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](#): > > Didn’t you once say (of me) Yes I did. Not to bruise your fragile ego, but I’m sorry to say I don’t remember specifically why. But thanks for reminding me that I was spot-on in my evaluation. > [@](#): > > Let me take the opportunity to say LOL! Be my guest. It’s pretty obvious how important this is to you. > [@](#): > > Maybe, just maybe, John or George (or whoever) thinks that > a) the f# third is musically important > b) the “standard version” (again, LOL) is not appropriate in a given context \*precisely \*because it rings (and or other musical considerations) a) is possible. b) I suppose could be too, though I don’t remember being struck by either possibility in the songs I saw it used. I’m so glad I gave you the opportunity for a second LOL. Sorry if the terminology “standard version” doesn’t fill the bill for you in describing xx0323. It’s most assuredly the first way every guitarist learns to play D, so please favor us with your preferred description. > [@](#): > > c) having taken the time to learn to use that shape they might as well make good use of it (or merely show off (you know, their mega-awesome talent and all that)) > d) it afforded them a laugh at would-be imitators who are thrown for a loop by such a relatively simple demand Ah, it’s coming back to me now. Our previous meeting was in a thread when you haughtily disparaged The Beatles because they didn’t come up to your high standards of musicianship. How about some links so we can be suitably impressed by your superior accomplishments in the field of music? Here’s an American phrase you might not be familiar with: put up or shut up. > [@](#): > > Did I say it yet? LOL! You sure did. Not once, not twice, but three times. I’m sure you went to sleep last night well-satisfied that it was a good day for you, and positively giddy with the notion that you had scored some great victory by pouncing on someone’s off-hand remarks about chord shapes. By all means…keep right on thinking that. It’s apparent how much it means to you. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/44 "2014-08-15T03:07:07Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > Well, come to think of it, that position is useful for the Eb’s in the intro to “If I Fell”. And if you learn it for an Eb, why not use it for other chords too? And I figure once you’ve mastered that position and got the muscle memory going for it, it’s not a big deal. Hmm… Where in the intro to “If I Fell” do you play an Eb? You usually see the first chord of the song as an Ebm, although I somehow have always heard a major 7th there, so I play it as x2434x (which would be Bmaj7 — makes that opening line sound more vulnerable, somehow). Probably wrong, but I’ve done it this way for close to 40 years, so too late to change. I do play Ebm at “'cause I’ve been in love before.” So the way I play it is Bmaj7/D/Db/Bbm/Ebm/D/Em7/A. Not sure where x65434 would come in. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/45 "2014-08-15T03:21:35Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > …in describing xx0323. Oops, a little fretboard dyslexia there…of course I meant xx0232! ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/46 "2014-08-15T04:11:48Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > Hmm… > > Where in the intro to “If I Fell” do you play an Eb? You’re right, It’s an Ebm in “If I Fell”. The Eb is in “And I Love Her” and the 3 finger C with the barre position Eb works nicely in it. > [@DChord568](#): > > I’m so glad I gave you the opportunity for a second LOL. Sorry if the terminology “standard version” doesn’t fill the bill for you in describing xx0323. It’s most assuredly the first way every guitarist learns to play D, so please favor us with your preferred description. There were times when someone in my family would mispronounce a word and laughingly, someone else would say “Your tongue got in front of your eyetooth and you couldn’t see what you were saying.” With that in mind, I’ll ignore the typo. But I can’t stay silent on this… the first form of D guitarists learn is x00232. Having a 5th available in the bass is really useful for alternate bass picking. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/47 "2014-08-15T04:30:27Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > You’re right, It’s an Ebm in “If I Fell”. The Eb is in “And I Love Her” and the 3 finger C with the barre position Eb works nicely in it. > > There were times when someone in my family would mispronounce a word and laughingly, someone else would say “Your tongue got in front of your eyetooth and you couldn’t see what you were saying.” With that in mind, I’ll ignore the typo. But I can’t stay silent on this… the first form of D guitarists learn is x00232. Having a 5th available in the bass is really useful for alternate bass picking. I dunno. I’ll take somebody named **DChord** 568’s word on it. 🙂 That said, the four-note version is the first one I learned, but I’m a keyboardist. Since I knew my chords pretty well by the time I picked up a guitar, I knew I could add the “A” in the bass where appropriate, but I clearly remember the 4-note version as being the first one I learned (and is the standard one I’d see in chord charts.) ETA: Although I’d bet that would depend on what style of guitar you were learning. If you were learning that whole root-5th bass alternate picking style, as you mention, I’d expect that A would be pointed out to you right away. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/48 "2014-08-15T04:55:22Z")
One more thing about the C-shaped barre chord. One of the nice things about it is that it’s a lush, full chord with a doubled up third, which you don’t get in other barre shapes. So, a barre like x65343 (which is what I think was meant) gives you x-Eb-G-Bb-Eb-G, a nice “full” chord with extra stress on its major tonality. With a distorted tone, it gets a bit muddy, in my opinion, but with a relatively clean tone, it’s nice. Now whether the Beatles had all that in mind in the songs mentioned, I don’t know, but there’s plenty of good reasons to select that voicing, including voice leading. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/49 "2014-08-15T05:38:35Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > But I can’t stay silent on this… the first form of D guitarists learn is x00232. Having a 5th available in the bass is really useful for alternate bass picking. Well, this brings us back to the original premise of the thread. Certainly you can play a D as x00232, just as you can play a C as 332010. Kind of depends on the situation, but I think it’s fair to say generally that when a guitarist first learns his/her open chords, each of them leads off with the root note. This includes even that difficult-to-play F (xx3211). As he/she becomes more familiar with how guitar chords work, then alternate approaches such as the above can be learned. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/50 "2014-08-15T06:08:52Z")
Well, my original reference was a circa 1966 Mel Bay Chord Dictionary. Unless there was an X above the string in the diagram, I played it. FTR: it had the C/E version of C. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/51 "2014-08-15T09:04:13Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > someone’s off-hand remarks about chord shapes. I’m sorry, your “I don’t see the advantage of playing a D this way” doesn’t read like an offhand remark. Are you now saying that you do see advantages to that chord shape? > [@](#): > > How about some links so we can be suitably impressed by your superior accomplishments in the field of music? What would that have to do with anything? I could be a paraplegic typing with a head-wand or I could be Paul McCartney’s stunt-double, neither would change one bit that what you said (that you now claim was “off-hand”) clearly indicated less than ideal standards in your own playing **which is amusing because you had previously made yourself out to be someone worth taking a stage with** \*. Do you see? YOU bigged YOURSELF up, you will find not one word of a claim about my playing anywhere. I did go to bed smiling to myself, so you were right about that. \*while impugning my capababilities which weren’t relevant then, nor now. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/52 "2014-08-15T10:57:10Z")
**The Great Unwashed** - mellow out. This isn’t about you. Your tone in threads like this simply isn’t helpful. If you don’t see that **DChord** knows plenty about guitar and is adding value to the thread by talking it through, I am not sure what to say. To be clear: the C-shaped barre is uncommon, is very cool in many applications for those who learn it, and apparently the Beatles where some blokes who did learn and use it. There - can we move on now? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/53 "2014-08-15T11:46:39Z")
I have never understood why the low E string (or even the G on that string) is considered out of place for the ordinary C chord. E (or G) are in the major chord. Why wouldn’t they always sound okay? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/54 "2014-08-15T11:53:24Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I’ve seen a D played 254232 … My hand is too small to play the bars based on open C, D, G, Dm, D7, and G7, but if I could I would. I can’t see how it would be a bad thing, even if you didn’t need it often. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/55 "2014-08-15T12:11:55Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](#): > > Didn’t you once say (of me) > > Let me take the opportunity to say LOL! > [@DChord568](#): > > Ah, it’s coming back to me now. Our previous meeting was in a thread when you haughtily disparaged The Beatles because they didn’t come up to your high standards of musicianship. > > How about some links so we can be suitably impressed by your superior accomplishments in the field of music? > > Here’s an American phrase you might not be familiar with: put up or shut up. Knock it off, both of you. Nobody else wants to read this childishness. Take it to the Pit or stop altogether. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/56 "2014-08-15T12:35:19Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I have never understood why the low E string (or even the G on that string) is considered out of place for the ordinary C chord. E (or G) are in the major chord. Why wouldn’t they always sound okay? Our ears are accustomed to hearing the Tonic - the Key note of the chord - as the lowest note. With lower frequencies, the “beating” of notes as they vibrate together is more pronounced and if you have a non-Tonic as your lowest note, then that “beatiness” stands out more. With a G, it is the 5th/Dominant of the key of C, so you hear a bit of that beatiness, but it is not bad. With an E, it is a 3rd, and with very little off, it can sound clashy. (how is that for technical terms - hey, I got Tonic and Dominant! ;)) ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/57 "2014-08-15T12:58:18Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > My hand is too small to play the bars based on open C, D, G, Dm, D7, and G7, but if I could I would. I can’t see how it would be a bad thing, even if you didn’t need it often. This brings up the overall point that guitarists are different physiologically; fingerings that feel natural (or difficult) to them them will vary widely. As I said, I’ve always found the C-shape barre chord difficult to play. I don’t eschew it altogether, but I use it only rarely. I know some who have difficulty playing the A-shape barre chord with their ring finger because it doesn’t bend in the right way, so they use their pinkie…something I could never do because I use heavier-gauge strings than most. And I have a friend who plays a standard D by barring the G, B and E strings rather than playing the G and E strings with his ring and middle finger. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/58 "2014-08-15T12:58:47Z")
Thanks for the explanation! So when people say that 332010 is the “old-fashioned” or “1950s” way of playing C major, when did people think " Hmm. That doesn’t sound right"? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/59 "2014-08-15T13:10:11Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > And I have a friend who plays a standard D by barring the G, B and E strings rather than playing the G and E strings with his ring and middle finger. See, this is where I get concerned, that barre is sometimes called-for and sometimes not. If your friend is stuck in the view that that is \*the \*way to play the standard D then he is absolutely wrong, it’s not simply a matter of taste. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268/60 "2014-08-15T13:15:14Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > Well, my original reference was a circa 1966 Mel Bay Chord Dictionary. Unless there was an X above the string in the diagram, I played it. FTR: it had the C/E version of C. Interesting. I had a Mel Bay book from about that same vintage. Obviously, my memory is a bit cloudy after all this time, but I don’t recall those chord shapes being introduced right out of the gate. As ubiquitous as his books were at the time, there were probably a lot of different versions of them! I remember back in that day seeing a chord sheet for the Lovin’ Spoonful’s “Daydream” that featured commentary from John Sebastian himself. He emphasized the point that you needed the play the full 332010 C chord for it so you could get the bass pickup note for the chords that kick off the song. I took from this that beginning guitarists might not have otherwise known you could do such a thing. I realized after the fact that I was mistaken that every open chord a guitarist learns has the root at the bottom. It’s true for the ones you tend to use most out of the gate (C, D, E, F, G and A and the minors of each), but for some of the more esoteric sharps and flats (plus B), they tend to first show you four-finger shapes that don’t start with the root (e.g., xx4442 for B). It’s for this reason that when I’ve helped beginning guitarists out (informally), I try to get them to learn barre chords as soon as possible, so they can get a root on the bottom note for any chord with ease. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guitar-question-should-i-always-use-a-c-g-instead-of-a-c-chord/695268.md?page=4)