Guitarists and bass guitar question.

[Ranger_Jeff]

@burpo_the_wonder_mutt

Upthread, someone mentioned low “F#”; do you need a special amp/speaker combo to produce that tone? Do conventional bass speakers have a frequency response that low? Anything special about an amp playing that note? Special ears to hear a tone that low? Or are you really “feeling” it (someone else upthread touched on that)?

Well, remember that guitar music is transcribed an octave higher than it sounds. Although it’s written as high C, 2nd string 1st fret on a standard tuned guitar is really middle C. Which means 2nd string open A is 110 hz. So, 3rd string open on a standard tuned bass (4 string) would be 55 hz. With a low bass string of F#, the 3rd fret would give an A at 27.5 hz.

In practice, I suspect a player with a bass with a low F# isn’t going to be playing much below the 4th or 5th fret anyway unless he’s tuning it.

Citing this, and working my way down from an F# @ 185 hz and repeatedly dividing by 2, I came up with a LOW F# at 23.125 hz. I submit that while you’re more likely to feel it than hear it, the bottom end of the audio spectrum is 20 hz. You’d probably want at least 15" speakers but 18" would be better. And I think you’d want a graphic EQ because you’ll need a lot of power down there that you wouldn’t need an octave or two higher if you want balanced volume. So you’d want a more powerful bass amp so you can turn the upper frequencies down a bit. Maybe you can manage that by just turning down the mid and treble tone knobs and leaving the bass up on 11?

[burpo_the_wonder_mutt]

@Ranger_Jeff

Well, remember that guitar music is transcribed an octave higher than it sounds. Although it’s written as high C, 2nd string 1st fret on a standard tuned guitar is really middle C. Which means 2nd string open A is 110 hz. So, 3rd string open on a standard tuned bass (4 string) would be 55 hz. With a low bass string of F#, the 3rd fret would give an A at 27.5 hz.

In practice, I suspect a player with a bass with a low F# isn’t going to be playing much below the 4th or 5th fret anyway unless he’s tuning it.

Citing this, and working my way down from an F# @ 185 hz and repeatedly dividing by 2, I came up with a LOW F# at 23.125 hz. I submit that while you’re more likely to feel it than hear it, the bottom end of the audio spectrum is 20 hz. You’d probably want at least 15" speakers but 18" would be better. And I think you’d want a graphic EQ because you’ll need a lot of power down there that you wouldn’t need an octave or two higher if you want balanced volume. So you’d want a more powerful bass amp so you can turn the upper frequencies down a bit. Maybe you can manage that by just turning down the mid and treble tone knobs and leaving the bass up on 11?

All good information, thanks. It didn’t occur to me that the lowest string would be for playing up on the higher frets (I understand open bass strings are no-nos, for the most part); very good point.

…you’ll need a lot of power down there…

Yeah, that’s what she said! (couldn’t help it)

…leaving the bass up on 11?

I saw what you did, there.

[pulykamell]

@burpo_the_wonder_mutt

I understand open bass strings are no-nos, for the most part

Is that true? I never noticed that myself.

[OneCentStamp]

Give me the low B. I may not actually end up playing many notes below low E anyway, but I want the ability to go farther up the neck and play dyads and chords.

[burpo_the_wonder_mutt]

@pulykamell

Is that true? I never noticed that myself.

The few times I picked up a friend’s bass to monkey around with it, I got all kinds of hell for letting open strings “ring.” I think it was something about stopping the “ring” makes a clicking sound on the fret? :dubious:

Five different bassist will give you six different answers, including “It’s really no problem.”

IANABassist

[Mister_Rik]

@burpo_the_wonder_mutt

(I understand open bass strings are no-nos, for the most part)

@pulykamell

Is that true? I never noticed that myself.

@burpo_the_wonder_mutt

The few times I picked up a friend’s bass to monkey around with it, I got all kinds of hell for letting open strings “ring.” I think it was something about stopping the “ring” makes a clicking sound on the fret? :dubious:

Five different bassist will give you six different answers, including “It’s really no problem.”

IANABassist

The main reason for this “rule” (which I personally ignore) is that there is a tone difference between an open string and fretted notes on that same string. The main reason being that when you fret a note, the end of the string is pressed against metal, but the end of an open string is pressed against the bone or plastic of the nut.

To my ears, the difference is imperceptible, so I don’t worry about it. My favorite famous bass players don’t seem to have a problem using open strings, so why should I?

[Saintly_Loser]

@Mister_Rik

The main reason for this “rule” (which I personally ignore) is that there is a tone difference between an open string and fretted notes on that same string. The main reason being that when you fret a note, the end of the string is pressed against metal, but the end of an open string is pressed against the bone or plastic of the nut.

To my ears, the difference is imperceptible, so I don’t worry about it. My favorite famous bass players don’t seem to have a problem using open strings, so why should I?

If you play a fretless electric, an open string once in a while is useful to check your hand position – you can hear if other notes you’re playing are out of tune with the open string.

[Ranger_Jeff]

@Saintly_Loser

If you play a fretless electric, an open string once in a while is useful to check your hand position – you can hear if other notes you’re playing are out of tune with the open string.

Resurrecting the resting zombie, he asked, “I’ve only handled a fretless electric bass once. It was a Fender. I don’t remember if it was a Precision or Jazz Bass. It had a rosewood fingerboard (it just wouldn’t be right to call it a ‘fretboard’, eh?). There were no markers on the front of the [del]fret[/del] fingerboard, but on the upper (bass side) side of the fingerboard were the dots a fretted bass would have for positioning. So, even without checking against an open string, wouldn’t you have a good idea where your fingers are anyway? Not that it is much of a problem checking anyway. It doesn’t cost anymore.”

[Learjeff]

My 5 string, like every other one I’ve seen, is option 1: low B.

First, it’s really useful to have low D, and sometimes even the low C, just don’t overdo it. I don’t think I’ve ever actually played a low B.

Second, you get better tone playing higher on the neck. It’s more than just the tone difference between fretting and open strings, it’s the difference of playing a note on a fatter string. (I also suspect the extra string below where it’s fretted has an effect, but wouldn’t know how to test that.)

There’s a limit to that benefit: a bass doesn’t sound even better played much farther up the neck. 4th thru 9th frets seem to be the sweet spot for most playing.

The first time I played a 5 string was someone else’s at a blues jam. I used the bottom string as a thumb rest and played the other 4 strings like a 4 string. Eventually I figured out that it worked a lot better to play higher on the neck, e.g. to play a song in E as though it was in A on a 4 string.

You do have to mute open strings, just as you have to on any guitar. Of course, it’s more important on electric than acoustic, and even more for bass.

@Mister_Rik

Certainly, they’re rare, but I’ve seen a couple. I’m not sure if an electronic tuner would do that job, or if you’d just tune it by ear. Given the low frequency, I suspect most people aren’t going to notice if it’s a bit out of tune. I suspect you’d be “feeling” those notes rather than “hearing” them.

To tune low strings, just play the 1st harmonic. Much easier to tune, especially by ear using beats, and also more solid intonation: the pitch warbles less.

@pulykamell

Is that true? I never noticed that myself.

Yeah, really really true: open strings have their purposes, but you use a stopped string unless you have a specific reason to do otherwise. It’s like avoiding gotos or having more than one sentence in a paragraph, only more obviously useful.

Btw, I’m a keyboard player who doubles on guitar (various styles) and 3rd on bass. Mostly I have a bass for recording demos, and because they’re cool. But this stuff is all very basic. I thought I was the world’s worst bassist, until I started going to blues jams.

[Shakester]

You left out option 3; sell it to fund gear that suits you better.

If you can’t do that for some reason, I’d take the low B option.

I play guitar in one band and bass in another; I don’t have to choose. But I stand with WordMan about lead bassists. Low notes. If I want to play lead breaks I’m fully capable of doing it on guitar. On a long scale bass, I’d take a low B over a high B.

[Jumpbass]

Tuning a 5 string with a high B is rather unusual. It’s my understanding that guitars have a B string is to facilitate chords better. Basses don’t often play chords- that’s not what the job is about. If you tune it to a C, you don’t have to alter any patterns or shapes you may be using.

Oddly, most upright 5string basses tune to the high C, but uprights are difficult to play up high.

As far as the “no open strings” rule, I totally ignore it. I come from upright bass, where you’ll wipe yourself out playing only stopped notes. I have never had anybody give me grief for doing it on electric. Besides, I really doubt that the tonal difference is noticeable in a band setting. Also, many blues, rock and country songs are in E, right? Are you gonna ignore that nice fat open E string? You know, the one with the different tone?

Not many basses have it, but there are some with a “zero fret”. It’s where the nut would be, with a kind of nut behind it to hold the strings in place. Gives the open strings a closer sound to fretted notes.

Just to brag about my gear, I play a Yamaha 5 string fretted, a Warwick 5 string fretless, a 50s Kay upright, a 30s Gibson upright, and tuba. (I have a few) I have others, but that’s what I use on jobs. I just play bass- hand me a guitar and I play it like a bass. It’s pitiful.

[Ranger_Jeff]

Heck, doesn’t anyone make a bass that comes with a metal nut? I’m pretty sure you can get them after market.

[scabpicker]

My Danelectro Longhorn has an aluminum nut, but it’s not a 5 string.

And if you’re willing to get an after market nut, having one cut from a blank by reputable repairman isn’t a lot.

But I’m unqualified to speak on the 5 string question, as I’ve never played one, despite having played for 30 years…ugh, I should be better at it.

I do have a Bass VI that is string EADGBE. If I’m not playing chords for some reason (it’s actually very do-able on that instrument, especially if you avoid low E); yeah, the upper two strings are mostly decoration.

[Jumpbass]

Yeah, I haven’t seen one in quite a while. Forgot about them, in fact.

ETA: metal nuts. (Giggle)

[scabpicker]

Damn you, now I won’t be able to look at the headstock of my main bass without giggling.

[OneCentStamp]

@Jumpbass

ETA: metal nuts. (Giggle)

@scabpicker

Damn you, now I won’t be able to look at the headstock of my main bass without giggling.

Yeah, my first really decent, pro-level guitar (1989 Fender American Standard Strat) had a bone nut. Between that design feature and me being 18 years old at the time, it caused no end of hilarity.

[Jumpbass]

Haha! Bone nuts!

My uprights have ebony nuts. Make what you will of that.

[Dinsdale]

@Ranger_Jeff

1. You can have the 5th string as a “5th String”, that is, tuned to the B a 4th below the E string (the standard 4th string).

Hope it isn’t too much of a nit, but isn’t the low B a 5th below E?

I play upright, mostly bluegrass. Recently passed up a chance on a 5-string Kay at a fantastic price, just because I had no need for it in what I play most often. (And uprights take up a little more real estate than guitars!)

With uprights, I’ve never heard a low 5th string that didn’t sound muddy. And a high 5th (IMO) encourages too many bassists to be lazy WRT their left hand, and to encroach upon the guitarists’ territory. A lotta Stanley Clarke wannabes, who would serve everyone better by holding down a solid beat.

[OneCentStamp]

@Dinsdale

Hope it isn’t too much of a nit, but isn’t the low B a 5th below E?

Yep, it’s a 5th below E, a 4th above the next E.

[scabpicker]

@OneCentStamp

Yep, it’s a 5th below E, a 4th above the next E.

Umm, Smokey, I’m not the most intelligent man in the world. But from over here, it looks like you have that backwards. B is a fifth above the nearest E below it, and a 4th below the nearest E above it.