# Gulf Oil Spill: Joe Barton's "Shakedown" Comment, Obama F'ing Up Again **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626 "2010-06-26T21:11:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/101 "2010-06-28T16:57:42Z")
Actually it was Jesse Unruh, California House Speaker in the 60’s, but the description is universal. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/102 "2010-06-28T17:23:33Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > As to “the party of BP”, quit the fucking bullshit. The Democrats are the party of BP too. I think the underlying criticism of Barton isn’t so much that he is bought and paid for by BP (or that teh Republicans are bought and paid for by BP), I don’t believe that for a minute. My criticism of Barton (and the Republican party) is that they will do and say anything to criticize Obama. They are so convinced that teh Country is better off with the Republicans in power that they are (at least for the time being) republicans first and Americans second. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/103 "2010-06-28T19:35:49Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > But there are literal hundreds of entrepreneurs and businessmen and engineers who are skilled and know how to deal with oil spills yet they are turned away. BP has had a crack at it, maybe we could let a few other people have a shot? How do these entrepreneurs expect to profit? > [@](#): > > As to that crack a libertarian thought, you need to read a bit more before you can claim to really understand libertarian philosophy. I have read volumes of books on freedom and economics and the workings of the free market. What have you read? To take a condescending tone with me, your solution must be working out great. Yet it isn’t. I think there are a lot of people who have read everything from “road to serfdom” to atlas shrugged and still think libertarianism is unworkable. Whatever system we have now at least it has proven itself to work in the past, libertarian principles have never worked in the real world, they never will because it is too much like communism in that it requires a world full of true believers. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/104 "2010-06-28T19:41:42Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > I didn’t say they shouldn’t be organized efficiently or “marshalled”, as you say. But there are literal hundreds of entrepreneurs and businessmen and engineers who are skilled and know how to deal with oil spills yet they are turned away. BP has had a crack at it, maybe we could let a few other people have a shot? On whose dime? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/105 "2010-06-28T19:46:07Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > You pretty much nailed it. That is not uncommon however. Many people lack decent debate skills. I think the real issue is that it is becoming harder and harder to defend Obama with every passing month. People especially hate it when you are a third party advocate so they can’t pigeonhole you into the classical left right paradigm that people are so comfortable with. Essentially, people can’t deal with someone who doesn’t like Bush AND Obama. They don’t know how to react. Actually, I am finding it fairly easy to pigeonhole you. Oh, you maverick you. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/106 "2010-06-28T19:51:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Right, these are people used to _demonizing_ trial lawyers. Apparently it depends on who the lawyers are representing. These funds used to enjoy quite a bit of support from the tort reform crowd (after all why let lawyers extract 33% of the award for open and shut cases). The problem is that Obama is stealing some of their best ideas without attribution, its theft of political intellectual property. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/107 "2010-06-28T19:57:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > One hand: joy! No chance they’ll win! Other hand: fear. There’s no such thing as “no chance they’ll win”. Gripping hand: ambivalence. I live in MN, I can get over the Canadian border before they close it. Oh so you heard about Alvin Greene too? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/108 "2010-06-28T19:58:55Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > I would dispute that every bloody thing has to go through a court system and I would say, mate, that it’s a particularly **American** disease to think that an economic actor is ‘shaken down’ if it is merely shamed and decides to make a monetary contribution to mitigate damage without the intermediation of bloody lawyers laying on millions more in fees. > > Jaysus, people like you give free markets and enterprise a bad name. > > BP fucked up right good and they know it. Out here, it is favourably seen if the said Co takes responsibility and steps up. Your blithering on about courts isn’t about free markets and enterprise, it’s about American obsessions and bad practice. Its not an American affliction, its a “we don’t want to give Obama credit for anything” affliction. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/109 "2010-06-28T20:10:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The problem is that Obama is stealing some of their best ideas without attribution, its theft of political intellectual property. That was one of Clinton’s major sins, as well, although, like with Obama, their hatred of him predated the idea-sniping. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/110 "2010-06-28T20:14:10Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > Beside the point. Of course the Republicans exaggerate and are partisan. Wow, what a fucking revelation. The fact is this is illegal and unconstitutional. You have to assume a lot of things to reach the conclusion that anything illegal happened and you have to start making stuff up to reach unconstitutional. > [@](#): > > Are you disputing this? What do you think the Federal Government is going to do with the twenty billion? Are you confident that with their vast competence and sterling track record, the people who were hurt will be justly compensated? You do realize that the goverment is not administering this trust fund don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/111 "2010-06-28T20:16:33Z")
> [@Baboonanza](#): > > I’d just like to point out that when the Escrow was announced BP’s share price WENT UP due to having some sort of liability agreement (though far from final). Surely that’s the definition of free-market action? It was in their best interest to agree, just as it is in their interest to fix the leak ASAP to limit their costs though whether they are competent to do so it anouther matter. So what the hell is the objection to that? Did you miss the aprt about giving obama credit? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/112 "2010-06-28T20:30:38Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > :rolleyes: I’m not surprised one bit. I’m not defending Joe Barton. I’m saying that this extortion of money was wrong and all people and companies are deserving of legal protections and due process. Its pretty public to be extortion but since you claim its extortion I assume you have some link where BP talks about how they were extorted. Right? > [@](#): > > Besides what makes you think that the government is going to really be effective in distributing this money to the people who were hurt by the oil catastrophe? What on earth would give you that confidence? I’ll give you my prediction of what will happen: > > A lot of people will make claims to that money, even when they weren’t actually hurt by the crisis in any substantial way. A lot of bureaucrats will take some off the top and the people who were hurt the most won’t get anything. > > Since there is no legal way to determine damages if we leave the courts out of the situation, it will become pure chaos. I’m sure you are smart enough to see that this will happen. Have you heard of alternative dispute resolution and the 9/11 fund? > [@](#): > > Besides the critical issue now is stopping the flow of oil and cleaning up the gulf. Yeah so isn’t it nice we can take claims administration off of BP’s plate? > [@](#): > > I don’t think for a minute that it would take years to resolve the court cases. It would just be a legal framework for determining damages and resolving who will get the money. It should take as long as necessary to get it right. But obviously the total damage cannot be estimated until the leak is fixed. Do you have any diea how long it took to resolve teh claims from Exxon Valdez? Do you know how many palintffs were involved in taht case? Do you know how many we are likley to have in this case? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/113 "2010-06-28T20:32:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think there are a lot of people who have read everything from “road to serfdom” to atlas shrugged and still think libertarianism is unworkable. Whatever system we have now at least it has proven itself to work in the past, libertarian principles have never worked in the real world, they never will because it is too much like communism in that it requires a world full of true believers. Worse actually. Communism would just have required people to act like ants instead of people in order to work as advertised. Libertarianism not only requires a world of true believers, it requires those true believers to be superhuman; for each of them to be able to duplicate the job of multiple government agencies all by themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/114 "2010-06-28T20:54:56Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > We’ve been through this before. You’re general fear of freedom seems to me to be based on false history taught about the evils of the “unfettered” free market based on made up tales of horror and suffering at the hands of evil businessmen, who were seeking “profit” (horrors!). Never mind that in a free market, businesses seek profit by provided goods and services that consumers want and add to society as a whole and boosts everyones standard of living. Are you under the impression that the free market always operates to the benefit of society? Or do you even think it matters that the free market be harnessed to benefit society? > [@](#): > > By the way, what “consequences” are you talking about from small business owners and entrepreneurs having access to the gulf and seeing if they can solve the leak or clean up the oil? It seems to me that we would have a greater chance of solving this mess if the “regulations” and red tape preventing human ingenuity were suspended. I dunno, what if someone wants to concrete mix into the gulf and just pave it over, oil problem solved. > [@](#): > > Yet, instead of considering a compelling alternative, you cling to these horror stories about how it would be even worse if we trusted freedom. It not freedom they don’t trust. > [@](#): > > Here’s how you can look at it: Everyone naturally looks out for their own self interest to a certain level, right? Every businessman started out looks to make a living and do well, right? What is wrong with that? Does he do well by selling poisonous foods, treating his employees badly and not providing good customer service? Of course not. This would hurt his profits. He would lose customers. Have you heard about the melamine in the milk in China…and the penalty for doing this wasn’t just losing customers it was the death penalty in two cases… and they still did it. Its not to say that all businessmen are murderers and thieves (my family are almost all entrepreneurs) but having responsible rational regulations in place prevents a lot of bad outcomes while preventing a few good ones. > [@](#): > > Profits …but they really want to help people and provide a product or service that will enhance the lives of the average person. …It is from this entrepreneurial spirit … No you’re wrong. Most entrepreneurs really just want to make money and tehre is nothing wrong with that, there is no reason to lionize them. > [@](#): > > If we had a free market in energy we would see alternative fuels take off in a matter of a few years. You trust the government to get us off fossil fuel? Why? Every president since Nixon has been promising energy independence. Yet, we continue to subsidize oil and fight wars to protect oil. Oil is a cartel that has captured government to kill off competitors and protect its own profits. Do you know how far we are from grid parity? Do you know how far we were from grid parity before we subsidized solar and wind technology? the “free market” does not generally recognize a long enough time horizon to invest in the basic research that is necessary to close that sort of gap. The reason oil is so powerful is because oil is a very portable and has a high BTU::weight ratio. Nothing else really comes close otherwise we would be using THAT to fuel our cars. Coal has a very low direct cost/BTU (similar to nuclear but with much lower startup investment and much higher externalities). The free market is not going to naturally fix the energy problem until the energy problem gets a LOT worse (think $10+/gallon gasoline, Europe already has gasoline in that range for a while now and noone has come up with a better alternative). > [@](#): > > Thats why you cannot claim that BP, Exxon Mobile, and the rest are a result of Free Markets. They are the farthest thing from free markets. Of course they are the free markets, you are engaging in true scottsman type stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/115 "2010-06-28T21:03:03Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > The $20 billion payout by BP for damages related to the Deepwater Horizon oil spill was the result of a very controversial move by the Obama Administration, in which the White House effectively ignored established legal due process and assessed the extent of BP’s liability on its own, then ordered the company to pony up the cash. Cite please. I am pretty sure taht this is a mischaracterization. > [@](#): > > The meetings with BP were in private so we cannot know exactly what was said. But whatever it was it was illegal and unconstitutional? > [@](#): > > Clearly, the word “shakedown” applies. Obama had threatened BP “to plug the $%# hole,” and had approved investigators from the Justice Department to begin looking at possible criminal charges arising out of the accident. Short of Obama’s ability to pardon people, he is not supposed to have very much influence in who gets indicted, I know a LOT of people at DOJ and they take their independence seriously (especially since the whole thing with how Bush improperly tried to influence DOJ). > [@](#): > > One would guess various threats, intimidation, and the like were utilized to extract the twenty billion dollars from BP. What is clear however, is that whether or not BP complied, it is still illegal. wait, you are guessing that they threatened but its clear that they did somethign illegal? > [@](#): > > It is also immoral in so many ways. So now the Federal Government has this “slush fund”. The federal government doesn’t have squat. Its not part of the revenue, its not part of the budget. It is adminsitered independently and by people who have done this sort of thing before. > [@](#): > > Do we really think that they will somehow justly compensate all the property owners and fishermen who’s lives and businesses have been ruined by the spill? Of course. Participation in the fund is not going to be mandatory, it is not an exclusive remedy. > [@](#): > > Only a court could justly determine damages and compensate those who were hurt. Where did you get this nonsense from? You ever hear of alternative dispute resolution? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/116 "2010-06-28T21:05:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > it requires those true believers to be superhuman; for each of them to be able to duplicate the job of multiple government agencies all by themselves. Well with the internet and all we can use things like chatboard and ebay feedback scores to figure out which unlicensed doctor to use and which uninspected baby food to use. Of course it might be hard for doctors and baby food companies that have not developed a reputation yet but… ooh look shiny. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/117 "2010-06-29T00:59:17Z")
Hmmmm. I see it’s been more than 24 hours since **jrodefeld** posted; I was still kind of hoping he’d try and reply to the questions I asked him in post #69. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626/118 "2010-06-29T03:26:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Hmmmm. > > I see it’s been more than 24 hours since **jrodefeld** posted; I was still kind of hoping he’d try and reply to the questions I asked him in post #69. He needs to get his talking points from Rush Limbaugh first. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gulf-oil-spill-joe-bartons-shakedown-comment-obama-fing-up-again/544626.md?page=5)