# Gun-carrying doctor stops killer **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2014, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995 "2014-07-25T04:37:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![orangeapples](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@orangeapples](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orangeapples)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/41 "2014-07-25T16:27:11Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > This fact may not do any good, but here it is anyway–many spree killers give up (often by committing suicide) at the first sign of any resistance, **even if the resistance is ineffectual**. (Excerpted from original post) Is there any evidence that this is in fact, a fact? And by “the first sign of any resistance” do you mean instead **armed** resistance? Whether that would make this assertion more or less factual, well, again I’d like to see some proof to back up the claim. Effectively, this story shows us that two people that shouldn’t have guns, did have guns and shots were fired and people died. I like to think we’d all be better off if people that shouldn’t have guns couldn’t get guns. I don’t see how “at least this other guy that shouldn’t have had a gun had a gun anyway so justice!” is really the best solution available to us. ---
**Author:** ![mqqn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@mqqn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mqqn)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/42 "2014-07-25T16:30:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Unfortunately in the US gun law restrictions are absurdly easy to bypass. Just drive a city or two over and chances are you can get all the guns you want. > > Fortunately we do have an example of what happens after guns are severely restricted on a national scale. Did the criminals run rampant killing all the sheeple? > > Nope. > > Poor Aussies. If only they had more guns… Unfortunately for your argument, Australia was not a country that fought to win it’s freedom through revolt against an oppressive government. Gun ownership is not baked into their culture, and there were not tens of millions of guns in the hands of it’s citizenry And yes, poor Aussies - if they had only had more guns, they may still have the right to protect themselves when necessary. best mqqn ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/43 "2014-07-25T16:34:45Z")
> [@mqqn](#): > > You are welcome, smarmcazm. > > best > > mqqn No insults in Great Debates, please. Warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/44 "2014-07-25T16:36:34Z")
> [@mqqn](#): > > Would anyone dispute that someone who is willing to take multiple lives, many time of complete strangers, is not mentally ill? Anyone? I’ll dispute that. I can think of many, many situations and instances in which people would be willing to take multiple lives, even those of complete strangers, and mental illness would have no part in the situation or the decision. Would you like me to list some of them, or can you see the flaw in your argument already? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/45 "2014-07-25T16:39:10Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > From the OP’s link. > > > [@](#): > > > > Staff members had heard loud arguing inside Silverman’s office during the appointment. They opened the door and noticed the patient had a gun pointed at the doctor, so they quietly closed the door and dialed 911, Whelan said. Gunshots were heard a short time later, just before 2:30 p.m. > > The patient was threatening the doctor first. It doesn’t appear so. Also from the OP’s link: > [@](#): > > “When the caseworker was shot, (Silverman) crouched down behind the desk to avoid him being shot,” Whelan said. “He was able to reach for his weapon, and realizing it was a life or death situation, was able to engage the defendant in the exchange of gunfire.” So, even though the snippet you pasted said that shots were heard after they saw the patient with his gun pointed at the doc, the case worker was already shot. If the account is correct, the caseworker was threatened first (then shot) and then the doctor crouched behind the desk and a firefight took place. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/46 "2014-07-25T16:39:38Z")
> [@mqqn](#): > > And yes, poor Aussies - if they had only had more guns, they may still have the right to protect themselves when necessary. > > best > > mqqn And if they had more guns they might have the need to protect themselves _from_ themselves. ---
**Author:** ![mqqn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@mqqn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mqqn)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/47 "2014-07-25T16:41:47Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > No insults in Great Debates, please. > > Warning issued. Duly noted and I apologize. best mqqn ---
**Author:** ![mqqn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@mqqn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mqqn)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/48 "2014-07-25T16:42:47Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’ll dispute that. I can think of many, many situations and instances in which people would be willing to take multiple lives, even those of complete strangers, and mental illness would have no part in the situation or the decision. > > Would you like me to list some of them, or can you see the flaw in your argument already? No - the flaw in your argument is that someone who is mentally stable can take innocent lives at all. Proceed. best mqqn ---
**Author:** ![mqqn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@mqqn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mqqn)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/49 "2014-07-25T16:44:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And if they had more guns they might have the need to protect themselves _from_ themselves. They might. Your conjecture is irrefutable. 😉 best mqqn ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/50 "2014-07-25T16:54:27Z")
> [@mqqn](#): > > And yes, poor Aussies - if they had only had more guns, they may still have the right to protect themselves when necessary. > > best > > mqqn Are you asserting that Australians are somehow prevented from using knives, sticks, bats, clubs, fists, teeth, feet, swords and/or daggers in order to defend themselves? Is it your belief that any Australian facing a threat is legally obligated to simply stand there? Srsly? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/51 "2014-07-25T16:56:42Z")
> [@mqqn](#): > > No - the flaw in your argument is that someone who is mentally stable can take innocent lives at all. > > Proceed. > > best > > mqqn Oh so you moved the goalposts: now it’s “innocent” lives. Okay, I can still envision plenty of situations where your argument fails, even with your added caveat. Would you like me to list some of them? Or have you yet seen the flaw in your argument? ---
**Author:** ![mqqn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@mqqn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mqqn)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/52 "2014-07-25T17:02:08Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Are you asserting that Australians are somehow prevented from using knives, sticks, bats, clubs, fists, teeth, feet, swords and/or daggers in order to defend themselves? Is it your belief that any Australian facing a threat is legally obligated to simply stand there? > > Srsly? :dubious: No sir, they “srsly” can wave knives, guns , bats and snowboards at any opposing force that chooses to land anywhere on their land. That should work out to the benefit of the opposing forces who will likely have firearms. Think bigger than the next door neighbor getting drunk and beating on your door. best mqqn ---
**Author:** ![mqqn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@mqqn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mqqn)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/53 "2014-07-25T17:03:21Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Oh so you moved the goalposts: now it’s “innocent” lives. > > Okay, I can still envision plenty of situations where your argument fails, even with your added caveat. > > Would you like me to list some of them? Or have you yet seen the flaw in your argument? So you srsly were going to argue that military conflicts were in play in this debate? Go on with it - I am waiting. SRSLY? best mqqn ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/54 "2014-07-25T17:07:51Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > No - the flaw in your argument is that someone who is mentally stable can take innocent lives at all. So no one in the military has ever killed an innocent person? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/55 "2014-07-25T17:15:58Z")
> [@mqqn](#): > > No sir, they “srsly” can wave knives, guns , bats and snowboards at any opposing force that chooses to land anywhere on their land. > > That should work out to the benefit of the opposing forces who will likely have firearms. > > Think bigger than the next door neighbor getting drunk and beating on your door. So now you want to include invasions? Has anyone suggested they not keep an army? Also, as any look at history will show you, an armed populace is worthless in the face of a professional army. There is a reason why most countries facing the US militarily resort to guerrilla tactics. The armed populace can annoy them and kill some here and there to be sure but they can’t win short of making the other side tired of all the bullshit and leaving. For all that gun owners in the US suggest they protect us from government tyranny they are only fooling themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/56 "2014-07-25T17:17:46Z")
> [@mqqn](#): > > No sir, they “srsly” can wave knives, guns , bats and snowboards at any opposing force that chooses to land anywhere on their land. > > That should work out to the benefit of the opposing forces who will likely have firearms. > > Think bigger than the next door neighbor getting drunk and beating on your door. > > best > > mqqn Do you agree that your assertion that Australians are unable to defend themselves because they lack guns is false? That Australians do in fact have both the right and the means to offer some defense in the face of threats? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/57 "2014-07-25T17:19:29Z")
> [@mqqn](#): > > So you srsly were going to argue that military conflicts were in play in this debate? > > Go on with it - I am waiting. > > SRSLY? > > best > > mqqn Of course they are; you referenced them yourself in the post prior to this one I quoted. People kill other innocent people in wars and military conflicts all the time. Do you need to move your goalposts again? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/58 "2014-07-25T17:58:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Considering that we haven’t taken away anyone’s legally owned guns yet, I’m not sure how you can come to that conclusion. Then what regulation re you talking about? Gun bans? Ok what is being banned? You going to ban illegally owned guns? Regulation? Who are you regulating? Illegally owned guns? Every time this comes up, the 800 lb gorilla in the room is the fact that most of the time, the people performing the heinous acts shouldn’t or didn’t have access to legally owned guns in the first place. Mental disorders are a serious component in this yet the people proposing regulation don’t think that’s a necessary first step, why not if not to “grab guns”? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/59 "2014-07-25T18:04:15Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Mental disorders are a serious component in this yet **the people proposing regulation don’t think that’s a necessary first step** … I’m not convinced the part I bolded is actually the case. . ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/60 "2014-07-25T18:05:23Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Every time this comes up, the 800 lb gorilla in the room is the fact that most of the time, the people performing the heinous acts shouldn’t or didn’t have access to legally owned guns in the first place. The 1,600 pound gorilla in the room is that when guns are ubiquitous and easily obtained it is trivial for criminals to get their hands on guns. Sure a really committed criminal will probably always be able to get a gun but if they are rare they become expensive so your average street thug likely won’t be able to afford or obtain one. As my previous example of Australia shows when they seriously restricted guns on a national level there was a marked decrease in gun crimes and suicides. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995.md?page=4)