# Gun-carrying doctor stops killer **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2014, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995 "2014-07-25T04:37:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/81 "2014-07-25T20:32:12Z")
Sometimes the gun control debate devolves into a swapping-this-death-for-that-death debate: “If it weren’t for gun use for self-defense, then such-and-such a family would have been murdered by the serial killer that broke into their house.” “Oh, but if it weren’t for guns, the people who died at Columbine and Virginia Tech would still be alive!” ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/82 "2014-07-25T20:47:41Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > But a holder of a CCW is far less likely than even the general population to commit a crime. What? You’re claiming that someone who has presumably been vetted as having no criminal record and no history of mental health problems is less likely to commit a crime than the general population? Say it ain’t so! 😛 But here’s another statistic that I think we can agree on without having to look it up: someone without a gun is far less likely to shoot someone than someone who has a gun. One could call this the “George Zimmerman axiom”. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/83 "2014-07-25T21:24:13Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Does anyone wonder why pro-gun arguments are so often in the form of stupid anecdotes, and the arguments promoting public safety are always in the form of statistics? You mean like 100,000 dgu/year? Or the fact that US suicide rate is dead average for a wealthy country despite an abundance of guns? Or the fact that states with relaxed gun laws do not seem to have more murders/capita than those with strict gun laws? > [@](#): > > “I love my gun so much I was sleeping with it in my bed, and when a bad black bear burst in through my bedroom window, I shot him dead. If I didn’t have a gun, I wouldn’t be alive, praise the Lord.” And this sort of simplification of the other side’s argument is why you keep getting your butts kicked in the courts and in congress. ---
**Author:** ![mqqn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@mqqn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mqqn)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/84 "2014-07-25T21:32:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If you wanted those items, you should have replied “yes” to my two inquiries asking whether you wanted to see them. > > In light of your perpetually moving goalposts, here’s the first one that popped into my head: limited resources, no support expected soon, and a small group of people finds themselves confronted with a group twice their size that has a deadly infectious plague that wants their supplies. In that case, it would not be irrational for a person to decide that the infected, who will die because of their infection, should be killed rather than waste supplies trying to keep a large group alive for an undetermined but finite amount of time. > > I’m sure I (and others) can think of many more scenarios; how many would you like to see? Well well well, Bo - In reality you have no argument other than you like to argue. I would like to see all of the list you promised, and go back and re-read, carefully this time my friend, each of my replies that all ask for your non-existent list. I am not even sure what to make of the fatuous twaddle posted above, are all of your arguments going to be such? If so then don’t waste my time and just realize your argument is null. best mqqn ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/85 "2014-07-25T21:34:07Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > As a tepid supporter of gun rights, I have to say that this OP is a complete failure even if this case is a good anecdote. Most dangerous place on earth? This has to be the most moronic statement I have read this year. I take it you’ve been in a coma or something. Of course its hyperbole to say that gun free zones are “some of the most dangerous places on earth” but I don’t see any evidence that gun free zones are any safer than anywhere else. How many of our mass murders occur in places that aren’t gun free zones? IIRC an overwhelming majority of our mass murders occurred in places where guns are not allowed. Mass murders are such a small percentage of gun murders to begin with that I don’t think either side should be laying mass murders as their foundation for their positions but ymmv. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/86 "2014-07-25T21:35:21Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Do spree killers cause the majority of shootings in America? Is the chance of stopping them worth all the other deaths? What percentage of gun murders do you think are committed by legal gun owners? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/87 "2014-07-25T21:36:34Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > The one in the OP did, though. > > How many people would have died if neither the doctor nor the patient had a gun? > > “Thanks to the NRA’s efforts to block any sensible gun control, a mentally ill patient was able to acquire a gun and use it to kill an innocent case worker and terrorize staff and patients until subdued by an armed doctor.” That would be an equally unconvincing OP, wouldn’t it? The mental patient was a CCW? You sure? I don’t see it in the link. Do you have another link? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/88 "2014-07-25T21:38:29Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In 2012 there were [8,855 murders using a firearm in the US](http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/sep/17/gun-crime-statistics-by-us-state). This does not count suicides or armed robbery or other crimes using a firearm. > > Unless you can show that at least 8,855 attempted murders were stopped with a firearm it is safe to say that the harm outweighs the good. How many of those were committed by people who legally owned their gun? I can show you a department of justice survey that found that there are 100,000 defensive gun uses per year. Of course most of them did not prevent a murder but its really hard to tell which crimes would have resulted in murder if not prevented by a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/89 "2014-07-25T21:40:49Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Which to me argues that ANYONE wanting to own a gun needs to go through a CCW licensing procedure. The difference between the background check associated with getting a CCW and the background check associated with simply buying a gun from a gun store is negligible in many states. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/90 "2014-07-25T21:48:32Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Fact? I suppose you have the statistics to back that up? > > From what I have read that assertion is very misleading: So did these occur in places where guns were allowed or not? Perhaps these wouldn’t have turned into mass murders if someone could shoot back. I don’t advocate everyone carrying a gun but I think its silly not to admit that having a gun gives you enough of an advantage that frequently noone can stop you until someone else with a gun show up. There is that amazing story of that woman who stopped a potential mass murder with kind understanding words instead of a gun. But its an amazing story exactly because it is the exception that proves the rule. Most mass murderers are stopped by a gun. Once gain, mass murders account for so few of the gun murders every eyar that I think it is a distraction from the larger issues but, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/91 "2014-07-25T21:50:58Z")
> [@mqqn](#): > > Ok - In a land that you may have heard of, the United States of America, a people who were outnumbered, and faced better trained and outfitted armies, defeated a country and gained independence and freedom from oppression using firearms and guerilla tactics. They also innovated and began using rifled long guns to make their guerilla tactics more effective. I am not going to take sides in the general debate, here, but in the interest of The Straight Dope, I need to point out that this bit of American Mythologizing is simply wrong. Few battles–and none of the serious ones–won by the colonists during the War for Independence were won using guerrilla tactics. The initial outbreak of fighting included some guerrilla actions of harassment after the outnumbered British soldiers sent to Concord withdrew following a standard stand-up-and-shoot-at-each other skirmish at the Concord bridge. After that, pretty much every battle was fought in the European tradition. There were a few “guerrilla” encounters on the frontiers and the Carolina swamps, (often won by guerrilla Loyalists), but the major victories were not brought about by guerrilla tactics. And the war was won after von Steuben and others trained the colonial troops to stand and fight in the European manner and after Britain was engaged by France, Spain, and the Netherlands, making claims about being “outnumbered” a fairy tale. Similarly, the Pennsylvania long rifle provided a slight edge on several occasions, (when it was not being wielded by Loyalists), but the overwhelming majority of colonial soldiers were using the same “Brown Bess” musket employed by the Brits. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/92 "2014-07-25T21:56:31Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Unfortunately in the US gun law restrictions are absurdly easy to bypass. Just drive a city or two over and chances are you can get all the guns you want. > > Fortunately we do have an example of what happens after guns are severely restricted on a national scale. Did the criminals run rampant killing all the sheeple? > > Nope. > > Poor Aussies. If only they had more guns… There weren’t very many guns in Australia to begin with. I think they had something like 4 guns per 100 people before the ban. We have something like 110 guns per 100 people. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/93 "2014-07-25T21:57:33Z")
Oh, **tom~**. You and your wacky “facts” again. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/94 "2014-07-25T22:00:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No, that’s the bumper sticker “Gun Grabber!!11!!” issue you _want_ to turn this into. It doesn’t always boil down to “They want my guns!”. Really. The gun control side of the debate always say that then the ones that actually do seem to want to take away the guns take over the conversation. See, references to The Australian gun ban. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/95 "2014-07-25T22:01:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Considering that we haven’t taken away anyone’s legally owned guns yet, I’m not sure how you can come to that conclusion. Well, not at the federal level, we haven’t. But it is a constant refrain on the gun control side of the debate. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/96 "2014-07-25T22:04:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well, not at the federal level, we haven’t. But it is a constant refrain on the gun control side of the debate. Out of curiosity, would you be willing to accept, for the sake of an argument, that they do not represent the bulk of that side? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/97 "2014-07-25T22:06:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And if they had more guns they might have the need to protect themselves _from_ themselves. Well, thats the crux of some of the disconnect between two sides of the argument. The gun rights side realizes that our criminals already have guns and gun control will only prevent the regular citizens from having guns. Gun control folks put all gun owners in the same basket and think that a reduction in gun ownership would result in a reduction in gun crime even though none of the criminals would surrender their guns. Perhaps things would be different if we only had 100 privately owned guns per 100 people but we don’t and frankly, having lived through the LA riots, I would want a gun even if most of the rest of society was unarmed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/98 "2014-07-25T22:31:04Z")
> [@mqqn](#): > > Well well well, Bo - > > In reality you have no argument other than you like to argue. > > I would like to see all of the list you promised, and go back and re-read, carefully this time my friend, each of my replies that all ask for your non-existent list. > > I am not even sure what to make of the fatuous twaddle posted above, are all of your arguments going to be such? If so then don’t waste my time and just realize your argument is null. Making snide remarks about another poster’s submissions without actually addressing the issue is only marginally less offensive than a direct insult. Stop worrying about the quality of other posters’ arguments and simply make the effort to refute them or to advance your own. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/99 "2014-07-25T23:51:43Z")
> [@mqqn](#): > > Well well well, Bo - > > In reality you have no argument other than you like to argue. > > I would like to see all of the list you promised, and go back and re-read, carefully this time my friend, each of my replies that all ask for your non-existent list. > > I am not even sure what to make of the fatuous twaddle posted above, are all of your arguments going to be such? If so then don’t waste my time and just realize your argument is null. > > best > > mqqn My point is that you are saying things that you cannot support with facts. You are making bold, sweeping declarations that have little or no basis in reality and are not reasonable conclusions. Also, you are doing nothing that will convince anyone you are correct and sway them to your side; condescension and imperious disdain are not winning debate tactics, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![mqqn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@mqqn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mqqn)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995/100 "2014-07-26T03:45:20Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > My point is that you are saying things that you cannot support with facts. You are making bold, sweeping declarations that have little or no basis in reality and are not reasonable conclusions. Also, you are doing nothing that will convince anyone you are correct and sway them to your side; condescension and imperious disdain are not winning debate tactics, IMO. I posted several statements that have not been disputed with any facts. I have posted facts to another poster, as he posted some facts of his own. For you I posted a list of things that I believe cannot be intelligently disputed, and you have argued now all day and have not produced one pertinent reply. Once again, I have to say that you will not be swayed from your opinion, and I will not be swayed from mine. I will keep my guns, enjoy training with them, and will be prepared to use them if someone forces me to do so to protect myself or someone that it is my duty to protect. You can use your clubs and rocks and whatever you can come up with to protect yourself and your loved ones if the need should arise, and I sincerely hope that never happens to you or anyone for that matter. best regards - mqqn [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-carrying-doctor-stops-killer/693995.md?page=6)