# Gun control - background checks - how would have stopped SC murders? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2015, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306 "2015-06-24T01:20:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/21 "2015-06-24T13:22:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Can Obama or Reid (or Toomey or Manchin for that matter) explain exactly what law they suggest that would have prevented Roof from buying a gun? He had no felony convictions or indictments or any documented history of mental illness. I don’t understand what you want from these people. In response to the Charleston incident and mass shootings in general, Obama et. al. have only three options: 1. Propose that nothing be done at all 2. Propose basically centrist measures, like preventing criminals and the mentally ill from purchasing a gun 3. Propose farther-reaching gun-control legislation like bans of various sorts etc. Which do you want them to do? Or am I excluding some fourth possibility? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/22 "2015-06-24T13:24:05Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It sort of is unconstitutional. > > Race is a protected class. If you violate that (e.g. fire someone solely because of their race) then you violated the constitution. They could simplify the process a lot if they just ask, “Will you shoot somebody just because you don’t like them?” and just dodge the whole racist/sexist/transphobic/whatever issue. :dubious: > [@Donald Rump](#): > > Which do you want them to do? Or am I excluding some fourth possibility? Spend like a mofo on education, outreach and counseling for every teenager in the country to help ensure they grow up to be reasonable, well-adjusted people who won’t do things like this. Extend to college students and adults as the opportunity presents itself. Rather than saying “We don’t want you to have guns,” say “We don’t want you to kill innocent people.” I think even the gun-rights activists could get behind that. This solution is not without its own pile of baggage, however. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/23 "2015-06-24T13:29:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It sort of is unconstitutional. > > Race is a protected class. If you violate that (e.g. fire someone solely because of their race) then you violated the constitution. If you can come up with some kind of law that prohibits gun ownership to those who are going to shoot someone unlawfully, that would be great. Be sure it doesn’t violate the First Amendment or the presumption of innocence. A hint - 'This guy is a racist so he can’t have a gun" violates both. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/24 "2015-06-24T13:42:54Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Spend like a mofo on education, outreach and counseling for every teenager in the country to help ensure they grow up to be reasonable, well-adjusted people who won’t do things like this. Extend to college students and adults as the opportunity presents itself. Rather than saying “We don’t want you to have guns,” say “We don’t want you to kill innocent people.” I think even the gun-rights activists could get behind that. This solution is not without its own pile of baggage, however. I doubt this would be a cost-effective means of reducing deaths from mass shootings. Presumably this would cost on the order of $6.5 billion (33 million teenagers, a couple counseling sessions a year at $100). Even if that eliminated all deaths from mass shootings (huge assumption) the cost per life saved would be around $50 million. It would also be politically unworkable. Who determines the methods of such counseling? What about teenagers who refuse to be counseled? Do you compel them to do it? [David Frum](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/mass-shootings-are-preventable/396644/) has a pretty reasonable take on this issue. Basically, there is no one measure that will prevent mass shootings; mass shootings can probably never be driven down to zero; but a number of measures working together can mitigate the problem. Among those, he proposes: - Enforcing laws against prohibited buyers - Requiring gun owners to carry liability insurance - Requiring meaningful training for carry-permit holders I think those are a good start. Although I generally agree with the conservative view that mass shootings shouldn’t be used as a basis for large-scale legislative action that ends up infringing the rights of millions of law-abiding gun owners, too often this resistance against radical measures morphs into resistance against any and all measures, which seems to be the stance of the OP if I’m not misconstruing him. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/25 "2015-06-24T13:55:17Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > I doubt this would be a cost-effective means of reducing deaths from mass shootings. Presumably this would cost on the order of $6.5 billion (33 million teenagers, a couple counseling sessions a year at $100). Even if that eliminated all deaths from mass shootings (huge assumption) the cost per life saved would be around $50 million. As I said, baggage. > [@](#): > > It would also be politically unworkable. Who determines the methods of such counseling? What about teenagers who refuse to be counseled? Do you compel them to do it? Well, maybe you don’t let them buy guns? Again, baggage. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/26 "2015-06-24T14:01:00Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > If you want to\*\* tar \*\*entire groups with the same brush […] **African-Americans**. :dubious: Talk about being just completely tone-deaf… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/27 "2015-06-24T14:11:52Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > I don’t understand what you want from these people. In response to the Charleston incident and mass shootings in general, Obama et. al. have only three options: > > 1. Propose that nothing be done at all > 2. Propose basically centrist measures, like preventing criminals and the mentally ill from purchasing a gun > 3. Propose farther-reaching gun-control legislation like bans of various sorts etc. > > Which do you want them to do? Or am I excluding some fourth possibility? “Eliminate all gun restrictions and arm the churchgoers and this’ll never happen again!” is an option I’m seeing from various right-wing sources. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/28 "2015-06-24T14:15:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > :dubious: Talk about being just completely tone-deaf… Oh no, I used an idiom that has nothing to do with race but mentions something that is black coloured! If only there was some way to use that to distract from the fact that it is African-Americans - who primarily vote Democrat - and not Republicans who are responsible for a disproportionate number of shootings. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/29 "2015-06-24T14:16:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > :dubious: Talk about being just completely tone-deaf… Nobody was talking about tone-deafness. Did you have anything relevant to the point? > [@Ethilrist](#): > > As I said, baggage. > > Well, maybe you don’t let them buy guns? Again, baggage. If by “baggage” you mean spending a lot of money on something that achieves nothing I agree. Pretty much every suggested piece of legislation in the wake of a shooting has that baggage. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/30 "2015-06-24T14:19:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “Eliminate all gun restrictions and arm the churchgoers and this’ll never happen again!” is an option I’m seeing from various right-wing sources. Really? Let’s see those sources so we can decide if they are equivalent to the President and the Minority Leader of the Senate. Keep in mind that you claimed “all” and that “this will never happen again”. So, cite? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/31 "2015-06-24T14:31:21Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It sort of is unconstitutional. > > Race is a protected class. If you violate that (e.g. fire someone solely because of their race) then you violated the constitution. No, it isn’t and no, you don’t. You violate a law, which in this case is, I think, the Civil Rights Act or some other statute. Generally speaking, citizens don’t violate the constitution since it is almost exclusively directed at government action. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/32 "2015-06-24T14:42:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Really? Let’s see those sources so we can decide if they are equivalent to the President and the Minority Leader of the Senate. > > Keep in mind that you claimed “all” and that “this will never happen again”. > > So, cite? > > Regards, > Shodan What the hell are you on about?? I never claimed that I was quoting from any equivalent source-I was responding to a post about whether there were any other ideas out there other than the what that post mentioned, and I brought up one of the stupider ones I’d seen recently in editorials, blogs and Facebook. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/33 "2015-06-24T14:47:27Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > I doubt this would be a cost-effective means of reducing deaths from mass shootings. I agree, if that were the only effect. I get that you may still find it too expensive, but there’s much more to **Ethilrist** ’s idea than just reducing mass shootings. I reckon “help[ing] ensure [teenagers] grow up to be reasonable, well-adjusted people” is a good way to spend resources. The overarching benefits of a more civil, educated, and empathic society are worth a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/34 "2015-06-24T15:24:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What the hell are you on about?? I never claimed that I was quoting from any equivalent source-I was responding to a post about whether there were any other ideas out there other than the what that post mentioned, and I brought up one of the stupider ones I’d seen recently in editorials, blogs and Facebook. You were responding to this - [QUOTE=Donald Rump] I don’t understand what you want from these people. In response to the Charleston incident and mass shootings in general, **Obama et. al.** have only three options: [/QUOTE] Bolding added. To which you replied with something you allegedly read on Facebook. As if it were something you thought should be taken seriously as a recommendation to Obama. OK, you also claimed you saw it on “editorials”. Fair enough - cite at least two editorials where they recommended removing all gun restrictions, and alleged that this would ensure that mass shootings “would never happen again”. Or you could simply admit that your post was a gross mischaracterization and added no more to the debate than any other ridiculous straw man. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/35 "2015-06-24T15:31:23Z")
> [@Daddypants](#): > > Until recently, Reid, who is a gun owner, had a [B rating from the NRA](http://www.ontheissues.org/domestic/Harry_Reid_Gun_Control.htm). Which is a pro-gun rights voting record. Being pro-gun rights in Nevada gains votes. Reid doesn’t have to pander to his constituents anymore. He’s retiring after this term. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/36 "2015-06-24T15:31:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You were responding to this - > Bolding added. > > To which you replied with something you allegedly read on Facebook. As if it were something you thought should be taken seriously as a recommendation to Obama. > > OK, you also claimed you saw it on “editorials”. Fair enough - cite at least two editorials where they recommended removing all gun restrictions, and alleged that this would ensure that mass shootings “would never happen again”. > > Or you could simply admit that your post was a gross mischaracterization and added no more to the debate than any other ridiculous straw man. > > Regards, > Shodan Take your hoops elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/37 "2015-06-24T15:37:08Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Oh no, I used an idiom that has nothing to do with race but mentions something that is black coloured! Sure, whatever you say. Tar has no racist connotations whatsoever…I’ll just cry ‘Uncle’, then, shall I? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/38 "2015-06-24T15:58:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Take your hoops elsewhere. Cite what you claimed. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/39 "2015-06-24T15:58:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Take your hoops elsewhere. What point are you debating? ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306/40 "2015-06-24T16:07:01Z")
It’s time to repeal the 2nd. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-background-checks-how-would-have-stopped-sc-murders/723306.md?page=3)