# Gun Control: Bring it! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 4, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629 "2008-12-04T03:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/181 "2008-12-06T05:18:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I find it curious that when we discuss the First Amendment, there’s seldom an effort to quantify this – even though the First Amendment protects virtual child porn, “hit man” instructions, and KKK hate literature, it’s exceedingly rare to hear arguments that talk about eliminating it or substantially modifying it. It does not, however, protect such things as shouting “FIRE!” in a crowded theater or incitement to riot. Why not should the 2nd be subjected to equally as reasonable restrictions? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/182 "2008-12-06T05:25:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > In any case, we do already have empirical evidence showing that gun control reduces gun crime, thoughtfully provided by the government agencies of (nation-) states which do have gun control. Erm, [no, we don’t.](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm) Millions of dollars spent by dozens of researchers concluded: > [@](#): > > During 2000–2002, the Task Force on Community Preventive Services (the Task Force), an independent nonfederal task force, conducted a systematic review of scientific evidence regarding the effectiveness of firearms laws in preventing violence, including violent crimes, suicide, and unintentional injury. The following laws were evaluated: bans on specified firearms or ammunition, restrictions on firearm acquisition, waiting periods for firearm acquisition, firearm registration and licensing of firearm owners, “shall issue” concealed weapon carry laws, child access prevention laws, zero tolerance laws for firearms in schools, and combinations of firearms laws. _ **The Task Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws or combinations of laws reviewed on violent outcomes.** _ (Note that insufficient evidence to determine effectiveness should not be interpreted as evidence of ineffectiveness.) This report briefly describes how the reviews were conducted, summarizes the Task Force findings, and provides information regarding needs for future research. I love the “Yes, but…” clause they stuck in right after the sentence I highlighted. Keep digging, guys. There’s got to be a pony underneath all that shit; if you just dig deep enough, long enough, [I’m sure you’ll find it.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/183 "2008-12-06T05:30:26Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > What’s the difference? Do you think the gun crimes numbers are disproportionately about illegal possession or something? No, but gun crimes are only one aspect of undesirable gun use. A large aspect, perhaps, but still just one. > [@](#): > > Anti-gun control folks disagree. Gun crime results from a whole host of factors. Those countries do not show that gun control measures are the key factor. Maybe it’s demographic, economic, or cultural. Maybe gun crime would be even lower if those countries allowed more gun ownership. The mere correlation is insuffucient (they would say). Let them disagree. Until they can point to any other factors which show an equally (or even nearly) significant correlation with reduction in gun crime, it’s all just hot air. In any case, they usually don’t. In my experience, the standard response to “Britain has strict gun control laws, and virtually no gun crime,” is “Britain is in the throes of a massive gun crime wave! There are mobs armed with assault rifles roaming the streets! The police are afraid to venture outside!” A poster _here_ even linked to a trailer for the video game _The Getaway_ as evidence of the massive wave of gun crime that he believed was sweeping London. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/184 "2008-12-06T05:34:07Z")
[QUOTE=Me] In any case, we do already have empirical evidence showing that gun control reduces gun crime, thoughtfully provided by the government agencies of (nation-) states which do have gun control. [/QUOTE] > [@ExTank](#): > > Erm, [no, we don’t.](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm) You might want to look up “nation-state” right quick before the edit window expires, or you’re going to look kinda silly. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/185 "2008-12-06T05:36:55Z")
You might want to post a cite. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/186 "2008-12-06T05:38:06Z")
And a CDC (a U.S. government agency) sponsored study falls within your “nation-state” classification. ETA: Goodnight. I’ll check back in tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/187 "2008-12-06T05:43:22Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > …I’m not finding that specific statement in Dr. Hemenway’s study I linked to earlier. Could you provide a section/paragrpah? Probably due to a mistaken assumption, that everything I say is directed to you. I was responding to Algher’s snide assertion that I was ignoring his cite, rather than simply not being very interested. So, the quote comes from there, you gotta beef, he’s the guy. I’m not going to get thick in the weeds of a statistical discussion , mostly because I haven’t got the math chops, had to take algebra one twice to squeeze a “mercy D”. Some things kinda leap out at me. Like that bit about people who used guns nearly unanimously reporting that they felt themselves at risk. So, what? exactly? How many people like that are going to tell someone “No, not really, I just got a big charge out of playing tough guy and scaring the shit out of some punks.” Of course they’re going to report they were under threat, what the fuck else are they gonna say? And that “83%” number, I mean, whoa! But, basicly, I just wasn’t talking to you. Which seems a pretty good idea, you being determined to play it like a Dickosaurus Rex. Who needs? My straight opinion? Nobody of any consequence is after your guns, its just not possible. Don’t have one, don’t want one, I loathe the fucking things. Fear has found me before, may very well find me again, but I’m damned if I’ll carry it around with me. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/188 "2008-12-06T05:48:41Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > You might want to post a cite. I know this isn’t the first gun control debate you’ve turned out for, so I don’t know why you’d ask for a cite. Nonetheless: [The United Nations has a good one.](http://www.unodc.org/pdf/crime/seventh_survey/7sc.pdf) [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence) And here’s a [map](http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/world/0704/map.guncrime/Map.swf)! > [@](#): > > And a CDC (a U.S. government agency) sponsored study falls within your “nation-state” classification You can’t apply gun control laws in Utah and then act surprised when people are still being shot in Nevada. That’s why I specified nation-states which observe strict gun-control policies- this is not one. ETA: And goodnight to you, sir. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/189 "2008-12-06T08:38:07Z")
Take a look at that Wiki site. Do so see any direct correlation between murder rates and gun control? USA has some gun control and a rate of 7.52. Switzerland requires all able-bodied men to keep a fully-automatic assualt rifle in their home. Rate= 1.52. No it’s true that most of Western Europe has a low murder rate, but it doesnt seem to have anything to do with availability of guns. I mean- fully auto assualt rifles in nigh every home? That’s a gun-controler’s worst nitemare. But it seems to work for the Swiss… but they aren’t Americans, either. Mexico has extremely strong gun control, but rate =17.73. Now sure, nations with fewer firearms sometimes have a lower _Firearm_ homicide rate, but do you care if you are hacked to pieces by a machete or shot? I’d prefer to be shot, actually. And some nations flat-out lie. For example, for decades in Northern Ireland, all the deaths caused by “the troubles” were not counted as “murder”. See the UN’s caveat "\*“The statistics cannot take into account the differences that exist between the legal definitions of offences in various countries, of the different methods of tallying, etc.Consequently, the figures used in these statistics must be interpreted with great caution. In particular, to use the figures as a basis for comparison between different countries is highly problematic.” \* Lot of countries missing there, too- China, Japan, Russia, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/190 "2008-12-06T12:50:07Z")
If I could legally carry a gun, I would have shot 3 men so far. Legally. Glad I cannot then. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/191 "2008-12-06T15:05:54Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > If I could legally carry a gun, I would have shot 3 men so far. Legally. > > Glad I cannot then. Your point? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/192 "2008-12-06T17:21:03Z")
Just guessing here, he uses a lot of big words, but its something along the lines that the number of people who think they are morally and psychologically qualified to possess lethal force far exceeds the number who actually are. Just a stab at it, mind you. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/193 "2008-12-06T21:18:57Z")
Fuck off. I want for him to answer for himself. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/194 "2008-12-06T22:58:12Z")
Oh, I’m sure he will if you ask right. Have you a cookie, by any chance? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/195 "2008-12-06T23:13:09Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > If I could legally carry a gun, I would have shot 3 men so far. Legally. > > Glad I cannot then. The big, bad lack of gun control would _force_ you to carry a gun, and _force_ you to fire it? Oh wait, no it wouldn’t. You’re just being a moron. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/196 "2008-12-08T19:26:14Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > If I could legally carry a gun, I would have shot 3 men so far. Legally. > > Glad I cannot then. And to add to the general derision towards your comment, a legal right to simply carry a gun does not confer upon you a legal right to shoot people. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/197 "2008-12-08T23:19:25Z")
Might I interject with a question or three? First, I’d like to know how best to enforce to a sufficient degree the laws currently in place. Then I’d like to know what, short of the complete repeal of the 2nd amendment, anti-gunners might propose in the way of so-called gun control or gun laws that aren’t already on the books. Next I’d like to know how the anti-gunners plan to enforce _ **those** _ laws. See, the problem in total with “gun control” laws is enforcement. Gun laws state-to-state are essentially solid and sufficient, the problem is law enforcement is a reactive force, so they wait until the law is broken, assuming as we all must that we are innocent until proven guilty. Repealing that or preventing ownership places a “guilty until proven innocent” stink on what was a freedom, set forth by the constitution, the basis for every law in the land. Common sense restrictions make sense, but in truth, they’re already in place. Illinois for instance prevents felons from obtaining firearms ID’s, purchasing ammo requires a valid firearms ID. Yet determined bad guys still manage to get guns and would even if you banned then entirely. The facts still remain that guns are safer than cars, pills, fire and water, statisically. As with most things of a societal nature like this, there is a root cause. That root has several tendrils, but everything pretty much comes back to economics, guns are not the problem, they are a symptom of a much deeper problem. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/198 "2008-12-09T02:30:41Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > And to add to the general derision towards your comment, a legal right to simply carry a gun does not confer upon you a legal right to shoot people. What kind of gun owner are you? Oodles of guns, and not a single homicide, suicide, or felony assault. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/199 "2008-12-09T04:38:14Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > What kind of gun owner are you? Oodles of guns, and not a single homicide, suicide, or felony assault. Bad shot, apparently. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629/200 "2008-12-09T08:31:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, I’m sure he will if you ask right. Have you a cookie, by any chance? Everyone save the bottom-feeders understood it clear enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-bring-it/475629.md?page=9)