# Gun Control doesn't work... Except for when it does **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 25, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135 "2012-12-25T21:57:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![gunchris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@gunchris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gunchris)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/21 "2012-12-26T02:30:13Z")
I would be interested what kinds of crime have sky rocketed down under. I was talking to a Brit cop and he assured me that rape, assault, muggings, burglary were way up since they instituted even tighter gun controls. I would be willing to make a wager that criminals love the gun control laws. But to be honest, I could care less. I do not care that someone doesn’t like me having a Torah, Quran & Bible right next to Anais Nin. I don’t care that the westbororo baptist jerks like to protest or that baby lovers protest baby killers. I respect a Bill Of Rights, not a Bill of needs. I have the right to own the semi auto guns in the AWB despite what they look like. Its silly to ban a mini ruger with a pistol grip but not the same gun without a pistol grip. Stupid morons banning guns based on looks??? If I had judged books by their cover I never would have read Bukowski. Gun bans are written by morons for morons. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Krebbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mr.Krebbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Krebbs)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/22 "2012-12-26T02:38:40Z")
To **Czarcasm** and the OP, how do you both feel about the success of gun control measures in Colombia, El Salvador, Mexico, South Africa and Thailand? Since the lack of tough gun laws is clearly to blame for gun violence in the US, surely these five countries (all of which have comparatively strict gun control legislation in place) are much safer places to live than the good ol’ US of A. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/23 "2012-12-26T02:54:24Z")
> [@gunchris](#): > > I would be interested what kinds of crime have sky rocketed down under. > I was talking to a Brit cop and he assured me that rape, assault, muggings, burglary were way up since they instituted even tighter gun controls. > > I would be willing to make a wager that criminals love the gun control laws. > > But to be honest, I could care less. I do not care that someone doesn’t like me having a Torah, Quran & Bible right next to Anais Nin. > I don’t care that the westbororo baptist jerks like to protest or that baby lovers protest baby killers. > > I respect a Bill Of Rights, not a Bill of needs. I have the right to own the semi auto guns in the AWB despite what they look like. Its silly to ban a mini ruger with a pistol grip but not the same gun without a pistol grip. > > Stupid morons banning guns based on looks??? If I had judged books by their cover I never would have read Bukowski. > > Gun bans are written by morons for morons. Why would our crime rates skyrocket when not every household had a gun to begin with, and when it is actually against the law to use lethal force to defend against property crime? ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/24 "2012-12-26T02:57:17Z")
> [@Mr.Krebbs](#): > > To **Czarcasm** and the OP, how do you both feel about the success of gun control measures in Colombia, El Salvador, Mexico, South Africa and Thailand? Since the lack of tough gun laws is clearly to blame for gun violence in the US, surely these five countries (all of which have comparatively strict gun control legislation in place) are much safer places to live than the good ol’ US of A. That’s like saying that a lot of guns is bad because, hey, look at Somalia! If you don’t limit yourself to countries that are similar to America in most other ways (like, say, Australia, to name just one good example), your comparisons are inherently flawed. If you don’t see that, I’m not sure it’s worth debating you, no offense meant. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/25 "2012-12-26T03:00:18Z")
> [@gunchris](#): > > Gun bans are written by morons for morons. No. Gun bans are written by quite clever people (clever people that want civillians completely disarmed) for morons. Morons like the soccer mom who has been frightened shitless her little christ child will get gunned down at school even though there is a greater chance they win the lottery. Morons like dipshit hunters who are unaware their hunting rifle is nothing more that an “assault weap:rolleyes:n” on a different looking stock, yet support “assault weap:rolleyes:n” bans. Morons like handgun owners that support mandatory training for gun owners, unaware that they have opened the door for potential mandatory training a Marine sniper couldn’t pass. The morons are the people who support these laws and elect the people who write them. The people who write them know\*\* exactly \*\*what they are doing!!! ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/26 "2012-12-26T03:01:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If homicide rates go down, that means that gun control isn’t necessary. > If homicide rates go up, that means gun control doesn’t work. Who would want to control for variables and other such scientific, fact based goobledegock? If we have 2 countries, country A and country B - country A has no laws on gun control and everyone can own anything they want, and country B has a magical force field that prevents all guns from existing within their borders and hence have no gun crime. They’re otherwise demographically, economically, and culturally similar. Country A enacts their first round of gun control laws ever. Country B, of course, stays gun free as they always were. Over 10 years, they both experience a 50 percent drop in murder rate. Now, would you conclude that Country A reduced the murder rate because of their new gun control law? Well, sure, **you** would, but I mean, would a trained epidemiologist or other statistician? The murder rate has been going down across first world countries almost across the board for most of 20 years, regardless of changes in gun control policy. Why that is is debatable, but it’s very likely that the prime mover variable(s) are not gun control policy. > [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Yeah. This seems to be the speaking-out-of-both-sides-of-their-mouth deal when it came to renewing the AWB. How so? It was both a stupid law that didn’t aim to do anything useful (it banned cosmetic features), and it also resulted in no change in levels of crime which were already so minute as to be irrelevant to the guns it was aimed at. Is that talking out both sides of your mouth? What do you feel are the contradictory arguments about letting the AWB sunset? ---
**Author:** ![gunchris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@gunchris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gunchris)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/27 "2012-12-26T03:09:23Z")
> [@Eliahna](#): > > Why would our crime rates skyrocket when not every household had a gun to begin with, and when it is actually against the law to use lethal force to defend against property crime? Exactly! > [@](#): > > violent crime is up in Australia. A cursory Google search will show articles about the increase in violent crime and theft, but then other articles pooh-pooing these stats as being insignificant and totally not related to the guns. > So then we’ve got England, where they reacted swiftly after a mass shooting, banned and confiscated guns, and their violent crime has since skyrocketed. Their stats are far worse than Australia, and they are now one of the more dangerous countries to live in the EU. Once again, cursory Google search will show articles with the stats, and other articles saying that those rises like totally have nothing to do with regular folks no longer being able to defend themselves… Sensing a trend yet? > And then we’ve got South Africa, which instituted some really hard core gun bans and some extremely strict controls, and their crime is now so high that it is basically either no longer tracked or simply not countable. But obviously, the totally unbiased news says that has absolutely nothing to do with people no longer being able to legally defend themselves. > Then you’ve got countries like Norway, with extremely strict gun control. Their gun control laws are simply incomprehensible to half of Americans. Not only that, they are an ethnically and socially homogenous, tiny population, well off country, without our gang violence or drug problems. Their gun control laws are draconian by our standards. They make Chicago look like Boise. Surely that level of gun control will stop school shootings! Except of course for 2011 when a maniac killed 77 and injured 242 people, a body count which is absurdly high compared to anything which has happened America. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/28 "2012-12-26T03:17:16Z")
Where’s that from, **gunchris**? ---
**Author:** ![gunchris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@gunchris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gunchris)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/29 "2012-12-26T03:44:59Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Where’s that from, **gunchris**? I’m new here I’m hope I’m not violating some rule, but here you go. [http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/](http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/) Larry is a good guy, he wouldn’t mind someone snipping or reading what he wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Krebbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mr.Krebbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Krebbs)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/30 "2012-12-26T05:10:48Z")
> [@Randvek](#): > > That’s like saying that a lot of guns is bad because, hey, look at Somalia! If you don’t limit yourself to countries that are similar to America in most other ways (like, say, Australia, to name just one good example), your comparisons are inherently flawed. If you don’t see that, I’m not sure it’s worth debating you, no offense meant. I would say that Mexico and Colombia are similar to America in a very significant way. Colombia is a major manufacturer of illicit drugs, Mexico is a major trafficker of illicit drugs and the United States is the world’s largest consumer of illicit drugs. There is no doubt in my mind that the War on Drugs is the primary reason our society is so violent. Not that drug legalization would prevent mass shootings perpetrated by the mentally ill. I would not say Australia (or England for that matter) is perfectly analogous to the USA, either. There are plenty of cultural differences. To use Australia, two examples of significant differences that jump to mind are that Australia has a larger proportion of its population living in urban areas and that it is more ethnically homogenous (Australia is 90% white). It is stupid to say that gun control would reduce violence in America just because it may have reduced violence in Australia; it would be equally stupid to say gun control would not work in Australia because it isn’t working out so well in Mexico. There are too many variables at work to make either blanket statement. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/31 "2012-12-26T05:22:05Z")
> [@gunchris](#): > > violent crime is up in Australia. A cursory Google search will show articles about the increase in violent crime and theft, but then other articles pooh-pooing these stats as being insignificant and totally not related to the guns. > So then we’ve got England, where they reacted swiftly after a mass shooting, banned and confiscated guns, and their violent crime has since skyrocketed. Their stats are far worse than Australia, and they are now one of the more dangerous countries to live in the EU. Once again, cursory Google search will show articles with the stats, and other articles saying that those rises like totally have nothing to do with regular folks no longer being able to defend themselves… Sensing a trend yet? [Violent crime doesn’t appear to be up in Australia.](http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/tandi/341-360/tandi359/view%20paper.html) Murder and robbery are down, while assault and sexual assault are up. If you notice, almost all of the increase in sexual assault was attributed to situations where the victim was under 15. Either they have had a huge influx of violent pedos or reporting in that area has been drastically increased. My money is on the latter. How about lovely ol’ England? [Also not skyrocketing](http://www.usak.org.tr/istanbul/files/bcs25.pdf) (Warning:PDF. See page 12). ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/32 "2012-12-26T05:53:25Z")
Here’s another study that I’ve seen posted in other threads, and should be relevant here. **John Mace** - This study is saying that the rate of decline in deaths due to firearms doubled after gun control was implemented. > [@Don't we have an obligation as a society to look at ways to curb gun violence?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dont-we-have-an-obligation-as-a-society-to-look-at-ways-to-curb-gun-violence/641871/256): > > [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2704353/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2704353/) > [@](#): > > In the 18 years before the gun law reforms, there were 13 mass shootings in Australia, and none in the 10.5 years afterwards. Declines in firearm‐related deaths before the law reforms accelerated after the reforms for total firearm deaths (p=0.04), firearm suicides (p=0.007) and firearm homicides (p=0.15), but not for the smallest category of unintentional firearm deaths, which increased. No evidence of substitution effect for suicides or homicides was observed. The rates per 100000 of total firearm deaths, firearm homicides and firearm suicides all at least doubled their existing rates of decline after the revised gun laws. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/33 "2012-12-26T09:39:25Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Read the link I posted. It has links to all of the studies - more than one Sorry, but it’s not my responsibility to go sifting through your link on a quest for the evidence which you claim supports your position. I no longer go on these kinds of quests . . . in my experience the cited sources pretty much never stand up to scrutiny. Please post the actual data here. If there is solid data which will stand up to scrutiny and supports your position, you should have no trouble posting it. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/34 "2012-12-26T09:39:28Z")
Sydney (population 4.6mill) is currently having it’s biggest recorded year of fire-arm incidents, [with 124 incidents to end Nov 2012](http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-gun-crime). > [@](#): > > Some shootings stemmed from bikie turf wars, some were drug-related disputes on organised crime gangs, some were tit-for-tat matters between family members, and some were just “idiots” and copycats, police said. . 124 incidents, 73 without injury, 51 with injuries, 12 fatalities So what would be the relevance of Australia to either the pro or con side of the US gun debate? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/35 "2012-12-26T09:42:01Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > According to the OP, there haven’t been any mass shootings in Australia since they made this change. Although this doesn’t speak to whether or not guns are being used to kill people, hurt people, or commit crimes, I’m willing to accept “zero” as the actual number of mass shootings, which would seem to be what the Australians were trying to prevent. Well if there is a wave of mass shootings in Australia, will you accept that gun control does not work? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/36 "2012-12-26T10:33:32Z")
> [@gunchris](#): > > I would be interested what kinds of crime have sky rocketed down under. > I was talking to a Brit cop and he assured me that rape, assault, muggings, burglary were way up since they instituted even tighter gun controls. > > I would be willing to make a wager that criminals love the gun control laws. “A Brit cop” is hardly a persuasive source. Why not look at some actual data, as reported [here](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/18/crime-falls-england-wales). > [@](#): > > crime has now dropped by more than 50% since it peaked in the mid-1990s. > [@](#): > > The latest Office for National Statistics quarterly crime figures show falls across nearly all categories of crime, including substantial falls in violent crime, robberies – down to their lowest level for 10 years – vandalism, car crime and burglary with entry. Anyway, anyone who thinks that gun control will have an effect in either direction on “rape, assault, muggings, burglary” in the UK has a fundamental lack of knowledge of UK society. Hint: if nobody uses guns for self-defence/protection in the first place, then removing the guns will have no effect on people’s ability to protect themselves. And therefore there would be no reason for “criminals [to] love the gun control laws”. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/37 "2012-12-26T11:29:01Z")
> [@](#): > > So then we’ve got England, where they reacted swiftly after a mass shooting, banned and confiscated guns, and their violent crime has since skyrocketed. Their stats are far worse than Australia, and they are now one of the more dangerous countries to live in the EU. Once again, cursory Google search will show articles with the stats, and other articles saying that those rises like totally have nothing to do with regular folks no longer being able to defend themselves LOL. From [cuckoo.com](http://cuckoo.com). Not comparing like with like: > [@](#): > > criminologists say crime figures can be affected by many factors, including different criminal justice systems and differences in how crime is reported and measured. > > In Britain, an affray is considered a violent crime, while in other countries it will only be logged if a person is physically injured. Another stat: > [@](#): > > The United Kingdom has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world with 0.07 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants in 2009 compared to the United States’ 3.0 (over 40 times higher) and to Germany’s 0.21 (3 times higher).[3] > **[Firearms regulation in the United Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom)** > > In the United Kingdom, gun ownership is considered a privilege, not a right, and access by the general public to firearms is subject to strict control measures. Members of the public may own certain firearms for the purposes of sport shooting, recreation, hunting or occupational purposes, subject to licensing. > There is a uniform system of firearms licensing across Great Britain (with an additional airgun licensing scheme in Scotland), and a separate system for Northern Ireland. > With a few ... ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/38 "2012-12-26T13:01:52Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Well if there is a wave of mass shootings in Australia, will you accept that gun control does not work? That depends. If there _isn’t_ a wave of mass shootings in Australia will you accept that gun control _does_ work..or is this a one-way hypothetical where only evidence against counts? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/39 "2012-12-26T13:26:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That depends. If there _isn’t_ a wave of mass shootings in Australia will you accept that gun control _does_ work.. Yes, to an extent. I will accept it as a solid piece of evidence that gun control reduces the number of spree killings. > [@](#): > > or is this a one-way hypothetical where only evidence against counts? It’s somewhat one-way, since the antis in this thread seem to be putting their eggs in the Australia basket. In my jurisdiction (the United States), I am not aware of any gun control law which has reduced gun murders in general or spree killings specifically. Therefore the default conclusion is that gun control does not work. The antis claim to have found new evidence that gun control does work – the example of Australia. If that evidence turns out to be weak, then their whole argument collapses. On the other hand, if that evidence turns out to be solid, then it’s a solid point in their favor but they still have the problem that gun control hasn’t worked in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135/40 "2012-12-26T13:36:12Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The antis claim to have found new evidence that gun control does work – the example of Australia. If that evidence turns out to be weak, then their whole argument collapses. On the other hand, if that evidence turns out to be solid, then it’s a solid point in their favor but they still have the problem that gun control hasn’t worked in the United States. 1. Would it be possible to drop this “antis” tag? It’s a cheap and dishonest way to throw everybody that isn’t 100% pro gun rights into a huge pile and treat them as a monolithic group that all think alike. 2. How is it that if the Australia example doesn’t pan out their whole argument collapses, but if it _does_ pan out it’s just a weak example? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-doesnt-work-except-for-when-it-does/645135.md?page=3)