# Gun Control Glurge. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2001, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707 "2001-08-23T12:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![LateComer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5ac83/32.png) [@LateComer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LateComer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/1 "2001-08-23T12:55:40Z")
Received this in my email this morning: > [@](#): > > Subject: Alarming Statistics > Number of physicians in the US - 700,000 > > Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year 120,000. Accidental deaths per physician 0.17143 (US Dept. of Health and Human Services) > > Number of gun owners in the US 80,000,000 > > Number of accidental deaths per year (all ages groups) 1,500. Accidental deaths per gun owner 0.00001875 (US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms). > > Statistically, Doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. > > Fact - Not everyone has a gun but just about everyone has at least one doctor. > > Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand. > > As a public health measure, the statistics on lawyers have been withheld for fear that the shock could cause people to seek medical aid. Now, as we all know, apples and oranges cannot be compared in a meaningful way, so the statistical “analysis” is invalid. But, I was wondering about the relative accuracy of the statistics given. Is this correct? 120,000 sounds like a lot of medical mistakes resulting in deaths. That could mean that, on average, 1/6 of all doctors cause an accidental death each year. I did a little searching and came up blank on “real” statistics. This may or may not be a great debate, but I put it here because it has a gun control angle. ---
**Author:** ![walor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@walor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/walor)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/2 "2001-08-23T13:06:12Z")
I guess the other statistics that would be interesting are: Number of pre-meditated deaths caused by physicians per annum Number of pre-meditated deaths caused by gun-owners per annum (registered and un-registered) ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/3 "2001-08-23T14:33:39Z")
I’d be interested in seeing the number of pre-meditated deaths caused by non-owners in that comparison. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/4 "2001-08-23T14:36:44Z")
Personally, I believe personal responsibility is the key to safety. I always check to see if my doctor is loaded. [sub]\*\*uh…hey. hey, nurse \. You seen my scalelpul? Gotta bwe around here somewhere \ ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/5 "2001-08-23T14:39:38Z")
You can have my stethoscope when you pry it from my cold, dead hands! Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![walor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@walor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/walor)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/6 "2001-08-23T14:40:21Z")
My doctor used to be loaded but he lost it all gambling. :ducks and leaves quickly: ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/7 "2001-08-23T15:07:39Z")
I’d also be interested in seeing the number of pre-medi_c_ated deaths for each catagory…I mean, maybe these guys just need a little vitamin C, ya know? Zank you, I am here all ze veek. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/8 "2001-08-23T15:23:05Z")
If it’s any help at all, I’ve been on the horn to HHS and other initial named organizations and here’s what I’ve found: The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services keeps no statistics on this sort of thing under its umbrella. A subsidiary, the National Health Information Research Center does not keep such statistics either, but referred me to the National Center for Health Statistics. They track no such number. They even asked around for about ten minutes, because it’s an interesting claim. They were very nice, however, and referred me to the Agency for Health Care Research and Quality, where I left a message for Steve Cohen. I am awaiting his return call. MHO is that this is a cooked number. It’s a blockbuster statistic and if it were true these people would know about it or it would show up on a web search. I’ll let you know if I get anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/9 "2001-08-23T16:30:05Z")
Quick search on Google gave these facts: 95,000 deaths resulting from malpractice [http://www.jacksonwilson.com/pages/medmal-toomanydeaths.htm](http://www.jacksonwilson.com/pages/medmal-toomanydeaths.htm) 30,000 deaths from firearms [http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2000/09.28/firearms.html](http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2000/09.28/firearms.html) The numbers the e-mail cited seem cooked but (assuming you can validly compare apples and oranges) their “point” still holds. I don’t support gun control but this type of argument is ridiculous. The number of malpractice deaths cited above comes from the web site of a personal injury law firm - take it with a grain of salt. They claim to haqve gotten the number from a Harvard study, but they didn’t cite. - **Beeblebrox** * * * “I am so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis.” ---
**Author:** ![LateComer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5ac83/32.png) [@LateComer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LateComer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/10 "2001-08-23T17:10:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beeblebrox \* > \*\*Quick search on Google gave these facts: > > 95,000 deaths resulting from malpractice [http://www.jacksonwilson.com/pages/medmal-toomanydeaths.htm](http://www.jacksonwilson.com/pages/medmal-toomanydeaths.htm) > > 30,000 deaths from firearms > [http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2000/09.28/firearms.html](http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2000/09.28/firearms.html) > \*\* I did see the [Jacksonwilson.com](http://Jacksonwilson.com) page but didn’t consider it a valid statistic considering the source. Especially this: > [@](#): > > More than 95,000 Americans are killed annually due **in part** to medical malpractice, according to **extrapolations** from the Harvard Medical Practice Study. Bolding mine. I would consider a government agency’s site or an almanac site as a good source, but I haven’t found any. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/11 "2001-08-23T17:12:53Z")
I think I oughta point out that the cited Web page admits it **extrapolates** from a Harvard study to get its numbers. That study is cited elsewhere as “Harvard Medical Malpractice Study. Patients, doctors and lawyers: Medical injury, malpractice litigation and patient compensation in New York: The report of the Harvard Medical Practice Study to the State of New York. Cambridge, Massachusetts, Harvard Medical Practice Study, 1990.” I haven’t been able to find a link to the study itself, or to a source that does more than take a couple of quotes out of context. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/12 "2001-08-23T17:16:45Z")
My second simulpost of the day! 🙂 Let me add that 95,000 deaths due to malpractice - one such death for every seven doctors - would seem to be pretty hard to hide. I think the phrase is “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.” ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/13 "2001-08-23T19:41:49Z")
How many of these deaths due to malpractice involve gun wounds? ---
**Author:** ![Hibbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ce73a5/32.png) [@Hibbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hibbins)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/14 "2001-08-23T21:31:54Z")
> [@](#): > > The numbers the e-mail cited seem cooked but (assuming you can validly compare apples and oranges) their “point” still holds. I don’t support gun control but this type of argument is ridiculous. I don’t think it was intended to be an argument per see. I think it was merely a tongue in cheek shot at some of the arguments used to show how dangerous handguns are. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/15 "2001-08-23T22:20:18Z")
So much for the straight dope via e-mail. One figure that has been accepted as gospel comes from a 1999 Institute of Medicine study that estimated that 44,000 to 98,000 people per year die due to medical mistakes. The high-end number is referred to frequently and is used as a tool to institute new regulations. However, a more recent study concluded that those figures were wildly inflated. While I don’t view the NRA as horrible bogeymen, I still don’t want Charlton Heston to take out my appendix. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/16 "2001-08-23T22:48:58Z")
How many malpractice deaths were actually murders instead of simple incompetence? How many gun deaths were _not_? An amusing glurge, but unhelpful. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/17 "2001-08-23T23:25:31Z")
ElvisL1ves wrote: > [@](#): > > How many malpractice deaths were actually murders instead of simple incompetence? How many gun deaths were _not_? From the second article quoted by Beeblebrox: “About 18,000 out of 31,000 people who commit suicide in the U.S. every year do so by gun.” This means that of the 30,000 gun-related deaths (!) reported by that same article, **at least 18,000** were suicides and were therefore not murders. And this doesn’t account for gun accidents or legitimate use of guns in self-defense or law-enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/18 "2001-08-24T01:18:55Z")
Well, certainly, we can’t directly compare these two numbers. Consider that a doctor is used far more often than a gun (several times a day compared to several times a year). Additionally, how many of those 120,000 Deaths By Physician involved people who were terminally ill? How did they determine if a physician was responsible? If a patient overdosed on their prescription medication, and subsequently died, was that the fault of the physician? If I were you, LateComer, I’d ignore the E-mail. There are MUCH better methods of debating pro-gun stances than trying to demonize a completely unrelated subject. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/19 "2001-08-24T01:26:37Z")
Listen. **tracer** , I know you well (by posting history) and I have a good deal of respect for you. I do not own any guns myself (yet), but I believe that everyone should have the right to own a firearm. This is crap. This is serious misinformation. It may be for a defensible cause, and it may be tongue in cheek, but it is _definitely_ glurge. And I can’t support it, no matter whether I agree with it or not. Ignorance is being propagated here, not fought. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707/20 "2001-08-24T01:36:15Z")
> [@](#): > > This is crap. This is serious misinformation. What part? The stuff in the OP, or the numbers of people who commit suicide with a gun? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-glurge/77707.md?page=2)