# Gun control idea **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 20, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648 "2016-03-20T15:25:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/41 "2016-03-21T17:14:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > There are many reasons for gun violence. Including, I assume, proliferation of guns (after all, a huge supply of something makes getting it much easier), poverty, and the fetishization of guns by many in this country. Which of these alleged causes has disappeared or decreased, causing gun crime to be reduced by half over the past 20 years? Gun control proponents act as if the past 20 years of increasing gun ownership and liberalization of gun laws while crime steadily dropped hasn’t definitively proven them wrong. I’m not saying that more guns and fewer restrictions on them _makes_ people safer, but it pretty clearly doesn’t put us in any more danger. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/42 "2016-03-21T17:51:20Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Which of these alleged causes has disappeared or decreased, causing gun crime to be reduced by half over the past 20 years? > > Gun control proponents act as if the past 20 years of increasing gun ownership and liberalization of gun laws while crime steadily dropped hasn’t definitively proven them wrong. > > I’m not saying that more guns and fewer restrictions on them _makes_ people safer, but it pretty clearly doesn’t put us in any more danger. There may be other reasons for the drastic decline in violent crime in the USA … to wit **The Master’s** article [“Does no more lead in gasoline = less violent crime?”](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3138/does-no-more-lead-in-gasoline-less-violent-crime) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/43 "2016-03-21T18:08:05Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > There may be other reasons for the drastic decline in violent crime in the USA … to wit **The Master’s** article [“Does no more lead in gasoline = less violent crime?”](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3138/does-no-more-lead-in-gasoline-less-violent-crime) So when does the Brady Campaign change their name to “The Brady Campaign to Prevent Leaded Gasoline”? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/44 "2016-03-21T18:14:26Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Ammo doesn’t last forever in the absolute sense but it might as well in practical terms. Ammo already made will outlive anyone now alive. There isn’t an expiration date on it as long as it is stored somewhat well in any reasonable sense. You can still buy and shoot ammo from the Korean War era and even much earlier. It isn’t rare at all. If you introduced new ammo restrictions today, it wouldn’t have any effect on illegal use within any existing person’s lifetime. Most ammo doesn’t get ‘used up’ like other things do. It just stays around indefinitely until someone decides to use it. That could be next week or decades from now. The same is true with firearms themselves. You can load one, put it a drawer and forget about it but you better take care that your great-grandchildren don’t stumble across it in the distant future because it will work just the same 50 years from now as the day you put it there. I did say a long time. Also, the second untagged ammo becomes illegal to manufacture, the stockpile that currently exists will begin to deplete. Over time untagged ammo will become more and more expensive due to scarcity. And yeah, maybe 25 years from now you can still by pre-tagged ammo, but it will cost a ton. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/45 "2016-03-21T18:20:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Well, the '94 federal AWB would be an easy one to pick on. It was quite ineffective, although I don’t think I can claim an absolute “nothing”. The '86 machine gun ban was a solution in search of a problem as well. > [@Bone](#): > > The one in CA that imposes a 10 day waiting period to purchase a new firearm for those that already have a legally owned firearm and have passed a background check. > > The roster in CA that prohibits the sale of a firearm in a specific color when a different color of the same model is available for purchase. > > The city laws that prohibit mail order ammunition so a resident in one city cannot purchase but his neighbor a block away can. > > In CA the banning of .50 caliber rifles. Reread what I and PK said. He claimed that there were dozens of major gun control laws over the last 80 years that have done nothing. I asked for a cite that those dozens of laws have done nothing. Giving me specific examples that include laws for particular cities doesn’t even come close to substantiating PK’s claim. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/46 "2016-03-21T18:21:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It would also increase ammunition costs significantly. And what do we do about all the gazillions of rounds of ammunition that people have squirreled away? I probably have a few thousand rounds of various types. I could murder more people with those rounds than occur in my state in a year. Yes. It wont prevent any crime. Ammo can be stolen or reloaded. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/47 "2016-03-21T18:23:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > So when does the Brady Campaign change their name to “The Brady Campaign to Prevent Leaded Gasoline”? To be fair, they are trying to reduce the amount of lead in the air. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/48 "2016-03-21T18:24:33Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > [li]No taggant system has been found that is technically feasible for use in black and smokeless powders.[/li]. Pretty much seals the deal. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/49 "2016-03-21T18:34:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes. It wont prevent any crime. Ammo can be stolen or reloaded. That is a hugely weak argument. Reloading bullets is a way, way fringe activity. Most people simply won’t. And if the tags (assuming they are possible) would probably be added to the powder, and even fewer people are going to formulate their own. You are taking the fact that _some crimes_ won’t be prevented, and somehow conflating it in your mind that _no crimes_ will be prevented. Why do we collect fingerprints? By your logic they would\* stop no crime\*, because people will wear gloves. But people aren’t master criminals. They commit crimes because they are stupid and impulsive. And those folks aren’t going to be proactive enough to mail order some pre-tagged bullets from the intarwebs before their crime spree. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/50 "2016-03-21T18:36:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Pretty much seals the deal. I’m not saying tags are possible, I don’t know that they are. But aside from the fact that it’s a hypothetical, that was from 1998. I imagine materials science and manufacturing have advanced slightly since the time period when AOL was distributed on floppy disks. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/51 "2016-03-21T18:43:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How does that extend(if it does) to the right when and where to use that firearm? Is that also uninfringeable? I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s uninfringeable. But I do feel that the explicit right to keep and bear a firearm implies a right to use a firearm, at least in some circumstances. So if some law attempted to make it universally illegal to shoot a gun, I’d say that law was unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/52 "2016-03-21T18:58:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’m not saying tags are possible, I don’t know that they are. But aside from the fact that it’s a hypothetical, that was from 1998. I imagine materials science and manufacturing have advanced slightly since the time period when AOL was distributed on floppy disks. Perhaps technology has changed to make it feasible - do you think it has? I see no evidence that this is the case. So even ignoring the political reality, the benefits are limited, the costs are high, and the technology doesn’t exist. _But aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?_ ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/53 "2016-03-21T19:25:09Z")
I don’t have any particular expertise in tagging technologies, but smokeless powder burns at thousands of degrees (F) and there’s a severe spike in pressure (tens of thousands of PSI) as the bullet is fired. I’d imagine it would be a significant technical challenge to devise something that would survive that extreme an environment and not interfere with the normal functioning of a firearm. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/54 "2016-03-21T19:29:06Z")
That’s one of the issues related to cost that I didn’t mention. Ballistic science would have to accommodate for changes in the formulation of the taggant adding process. Ammunition manufacturers would incur cost to update their manufacturing process, reloaders their specs, etc. Really a description of some of the multitude of challenges were described in the NAS study. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/55 "2016-03-21T19:59:46Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Perhaps technology has changed to make it feasible - do you think it has? I see no evidence that this is the case. I just said I don’t know that it is feasible. If it were, it would obviously be beneficial. > [@](#): > > So even ignoring the political reality, Political reality shifts. > [@](#): > > the benefits are limited, I’d say that being able to swab up tags from crime scenes and tell you who purchased the bullets is as close to a miracle as one might hope for in the near future. > [@](#): > > the costs are high, Are they? I’d like to see a cite that the costs are high. And how high is too high? If it doubles the cost of bullets, but drops handgun crime by 20%, is that worth it? > [@](#): > > and the technology doesn’t exist. _But aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?_ But can it exist? And at what cost? You are declaring it a useless failure, when it would obviously be useful. _Aside from those points, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"_ ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/56 "2016-03-21T20:07:01Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t have any particular expertise in tagging technologies, but smokeless powder burns at thousands of degrees (F) and there’s a severe spike in pressure (tens of thousands of PSI) as the bullet is fired. I’d imagine it would be a significant technical challenge to devise something that would survive that extreme an environment and not interfere with the normal functioning of a firearm. They already exist in high explosives, so I assume surviving the firing wouldn’t be an issue, but yeah, obviously if they can’t exist without degrading bullets, that would be a prohibitive issue. I’m not familiar with loading bullets, but since people can alter the loads of specific rounds, I assume that it would be possible to add additional powder to compensate for the inert mass of the taggants, right? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/57 "2016-03-21T20:12:53Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Political reality shifts. The OP posited to ignore any political implications. > [@](#): > > I’d say that being able to swab up tags from crime scenes and tell you who purchased the bullets is as close to a miracle as one might hope for in the near future. That would be cool - like magic. Do you think that most crime scenes where gun shots are involved have unknown shooters? What do you think the population of potential benefit here is? > [@](#): > > Are they? I’d like to see a cite that the costs are high. And how high is too high? If it doubles the cost of bullets, but drops handgun crime by 20%, is that worth it? There are cost estimates for some of the known items in the cite I linked. Post #37, table 3.2 of the NAS report. There are also currently unknown costs for things like data gathering, etc. There is no cite for those because there is nothing that exists. If it doubles the cost of bullets but handgun crime drops 20%, I’d say maybe. To determine that, we’d have to evaluate what else can be done that would yield drops of 20% in handgun crime. Perhaps it can be done much cheaper. Would 20% be worth it to you? When do you think it’s not worth it? > [@](#): > > But can it exist? And at what cost? You are declaring it a useless failure, when it would obviously be useful. _Aside from those points, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"_ Right now (as of the date of the NAS report) it does not exist. Could it? Theoretically it could, just like the molecules in my hand can possibly align to allow me to pass through a table unimpeded. Is that likely - probably less than an effective taggant system. But both are possible. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/58 "2016-03-21T20:25:53Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The OP posited to ignore any political implications. I took your post as saying it was politically impossible, I was responding to that. If you were just reiterating the OP’s framing, my bad. > [@](#): > > That would be cool - like magic. Do you think that most crime scenes where gun shots are involved have unknown shooters? What do you think the population of potential benefit here is? I am unaware. But, for instance, if I were going to kill the guy sleeping with my cat, and I knew that I had tagged bullets, I would pause. Yes, we’d need to know the numbers, but most violent crime is impulsive crime, so I think, at the least, a lot of people would be caught a bit quicker. > [@](#): > > There are cost estimates for some of the known items in the cite I linked. Post #37, table 3.2 of the NAS report. Which, being nearly 20 years old, isn’t really very reputable. The technologies involved have improved markedly over those years. I’d like to see some modern assessments before dismissing it out of hand. > [@](#): > > There are also currently unknown costs for things like data gathering, etc. There is no cite for those because there is nothing that exists. Yes, but there could be reasonable projections. Certainly there would be savings in policing costs. If the CSI bro can just take swabs, and plug the serial numbers into a national database, that’s likely cheaper than paying a detective to make a bunch of calls and question people. > [@](#): > > If it doubles the cost of bullets but handgun crime drops 20%, I’d say maybe. To determine that, we’d have to evaluate what else can be done that would yield drops of 20% in handgun crime. Perhaps it can be done much cheaper. Would 20% be worth it to you? When do you think it’s not worth it? Personally, I’d say if it doubles the cost of bullets, a 1% decrease in violent crime (that can be definitively traced to it) is reasonable. But I can afford bullets at twice the cost, and some people can’t, so I see that being a real issue. Certainly the cost will go down over time as technology improves, but the point where it’s politically feasible, I have no idea. > [@](#): > > Right now (as of the date of the NAS report) it does not exist. Could it? Theoretically it could, just like the molecules in my hand can possibly align to allow me to pass through a table unimpeded. Is that likely - probably less than an effective taggant system. But both are possible. I’m glad that you’re willing to throw a probably in there. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/59 "2016-03-21T20:37:05Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Personally, I’d say if it doubles the cost of bullets, a 1% decrease in violent crime (that can be definitively traced to it) is reasonable. More like 1000x the cost and no significant decrease. But the 1000X the cost is the goal, not the benefit to law Enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648/60 "2016-03-21T20:43:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > More like 1000x the cost and no significant decrease. > > But the 1000X the cost is the goal, not the benefit to law Enforcement. That’s utter nonsense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-idea/749648.md?page=4)