# Gun control proposals for which the burden falls on criminals and not the law-abiding **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 17, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925 "2019-10-17T21:42:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/121 "2019-10-22T18:01:06Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > … One other place that lack of guns would help would be in suicides where someone wants to make a public statement. There was a case recently of [a student who brought a shotgun to school to commit suicide.](https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/19/us/portland-coach-hugging-armed-student/index.html) Without guns, I don’t think the person would try in public. … It’s possible, but guns aren’t the only easy method of public suicide. People jump off tall structures regularly, and while not very common, [self-immolation](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/30/man-dies-after-setting-himself-on-fire-near-white-house.html) is another easily-accessible method of public suicide. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/122 "2019-10-22T18:09:26Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > … One other place that lack of guns would help would be in suicides where someone wants to make a public statement. There was a case recently of [a student who brought a shotgun to school to commit suicide.](https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/19/us/portland-coach-hugging-armed-student/index.html) Without guns, I don’t think the person would try in public. … Jump off the Golden Gate. Stand in front of a train. Drive into oncoming traffic. Many ways of getting attention while also killing yourself. At least, usually with guns they are the only victim. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/123 "2019-10-22T18:09:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If there are small metal parts that can’t be made at home (and I’m not talking about home 3D printing currently, but what might be available a decade from now, long before the half-billion guns already in the U.S. could be significantly reduced by any legally plausible means), I’m confident internet entrepreneurs will be happy to supply them with wink-wink warnings that say “don’t use this for this purpose.” The ATF doesn’t care what the stated purpose of an item is. If you’ve got a DIAS, you are in possession of a machine gun (and, in most cases, in violation of federal laws). Whatever nonsense someone might have scribbled on the package about “don’t use this for this purpose” will not help you at trial. It remains to be seen if they’ll try to bust people in possession of [coat hangers and wire snips](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/01/04/coat-hanger-machine-gun-dias-drop-in-auto-sear/) with constructive possession. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/124 "2019-10-22T18:16:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s possible, but guns aren’t the only easy method of public suicide. People jump off tall structures regularly, and while not very common, [self-immolation](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/30/man-dies-after-setting-himself-on-fire-near-white-house.html) is another easily-accessible method of public suicide. Right. There are technically many ways to suicide in public, but my feeling is that many of the non-gun ways involve the potential for more pain, complications, or not deliver the same message, and therefore would not be done. If someone wants to kill themselves in front of their class, in a press conference (Budd Dwyer), or conference room (Apple employee) in a in a quick and pain-free way, there aren’t too many plausible ways other than with a gun. If someone jumps off a bridge, hits a car, or gets hit by a train, they won’t have delivered their message in front of the intended audience. But also part of my point was that these kinds of “suicide in front of an intended audience” are pretty rare. If they didn’t happen, it wouldn’t really make much a difference in the suicide stats. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/125 "2019-10-22T18:17:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s possible, but guns aren’t the only easy method of public suicide. People jump off tall structures regularly, and while not very common, [self-immolation](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/30/man-dies-after-setting-himself-on-fire-near-white-house.html) is another easily-accessible method of public suicide. If someon’s killing themselves to make a public statement, doing so by jumping of a tall structure (a) limits the number of sites available to one for making the statement, and (b) limits one’s ability to make a verbal statement to one’s audience, pre-suicide, since one must be several stories above the ground and away from one’s prospective audience before jumping. And however effective self-immolation might be in terms of statement-making, burning to death is one of the more painful ways to die, and while many people are willing to die for a cause, most of us have limits on how much pain we’re willing to endure for it. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/126 "2019-10-22T18:31:02Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Pass laws that make law abiding gun owners into felons. Then you don’t have to worry about inconveniencing them. This is the kind of crazy shit that gets a pass here. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/127 "2019-10-22T18:40:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They are allowed to. It is totally false that the CDC cant do firearm studies. Let me know [when they are funded](https://www.wired.com/story/cdc-gun-violence-research-money/) to do so. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/128 "2019-10-22T18:45:49Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > This is the kind of crazy shit that gets a pass here. Yup. OP asks for gun control proposals that won’t have substantial negative effects on law-abiding gun owners, and the response is “turn them into felons”. WT actual F?!? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/129 "2019-10-22T18:49:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yup. OP asks for gun control proposals that won’t have substantial negative effects on law-abiding gun owners, and the response is “turn them into felons”. WT actual F?!? Sorry, I guess the sarcasm wasn’t coming through. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/130 "2019-10-22T18:58:43Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Sorry, I guess the sarcasm wasn’t coming through. I think the larger problem is that what was intended as sarcasm can be so easily mistaken for what passes as a serious proposal here on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/131 "2019-10-22T19:15:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Of course, the gun grabbers, as they hate and fear guns, will happily trade other citizens rights to guns away to make the gun grabbers feel safer. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think the larger problem is that what was intended as sarcasm can be so easily mistaken for what passes as a serious proposal here on the SDMB. /thread So much for a productive or respectful discussion. I didn’t think it would go well, but I gave it a try. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/132 "2019-10-22T19:28:12Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > /thread > > So much for a productive or respectful discussion. > > I didn’t think it would go well, but I gave it a try. FWIW, I really appreciated your lengthy initial post. I don’t know if I’m quite convinced about all your proposals, but it seemed like a very worthwhile effort. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/133 "2019-10-22T19:30:16Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > /thread > > So much for a productive or respectful discussion. > > I didn’t think it would go well, but I gave it a try. Same here, especially after that “gun grabbers” crap. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/134 "2019-10-22T21:52:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s a common sentiment among gun owners, or at least activists for the right of the people to keep and bear arms, that many gun control proposals are intentionally crafted to harass / inconvenience / make life harder for law-abiding gun owners. In this thread, I’d like to discuss gun control proposals that do NOT harass / inconvenience / make life harder for law-abiding gun owners. I suspect adhering to that guideline in an absolute sense would be difficult, so let’s focus on proposals that _maximize_ effectively reducing gun crime while _minimizing_ the harm / imposition on law-abiding gun owners. This is the general idea of laws aimed at taking guns from people deemed likely to commit crimes. Usually for mental health related reasons. The ‘red flag’ idea. Which is often politically marketed as ‘not gun control’. And the marketing also de-emphasizes that it is, actually, taking people’s guns away. But in a way that does not ‘harass, inconvenience etc’ ‘law abiding gun owners’. I think there’s some real scope for that. The problem in practice is reaching a consensus on balance between Type I and II errors, ie cases of guns taken away that seem unfair to at least a lot of people (questionable cases pretty much inevitable) v whose gun isn’t taken away but then commits a mental illness related\* gun crime, which is 100% inevitable. As others mentioned, pre-existing clear evidence of mental illness applies to much less than 100% of ‘psycho type’ gun crimes. Although OTOH it’s not fair to write off any given measure because it’s not 100% effective. ‘More robust background checks’ wouldn’t be 100% effective, banning ‘assault weapons’ wouldn’t be. No single thing would eliminate gun crimes except eliminating guns, which just isn’t going to happen in the US, anything close to it isn’t going to. Anyway pretty much by definition, the only measures which don’t put lower threat gun owners to more trouble relative to the threat they pose than they do higher threat gun owners are measures which seek to differentiate among gun owners. Measures which differentiate among guns might or might not be very effective, might or might not be politically possible, depending on the details. But they pretty much automatically present more of a burden relative to the threat on people who are less of a threat. \*people might or might not accept that mass shooting, family annihilation, etc. is always the result of mental illness, but people don’t generally think that shooting people in robberies, bar fights etc. _is_ mental illness, though obviously it can be. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/135 "2019-10-22T21:59:44Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > This is the general idea of laws aimed at taking guns from people deemed likely to commit crimes. Usually for mental health related reasons. The ‘red flag’ idea. Which is often politically marketed as ‘not gun control’. And the marketing also de-emphasizes that it is, actually, taking people’s guns away. But in a way that does not ‘harass, inconvenience etc’ ‘law abiding gun owners’. > > … I have a simple way of knowing whether a Red Flag law is good or oppressive. Does the ACLU say it has proper Due Process? If the ACLU sez “NO”, then it is bad and oppressive law, really aimed at gun grabbing, not helping people. E.G. California’s current Red Flag Law. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/136 "2019-10-23T00:36:03Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The ATF doesn’t care what the stated purpose of an item is. If you’ve got a DIAS, you are in possession of a machine gun (and, in most cases, in violation of federal laws). Whatever nonsense someone might have scribbled on the package about “don’t use this for this purpose” will not help you at trial. > > It remains to be seen if they’ll try to bust people in possession of [coat hangers and wire snips](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/01/04/coat-hanger-machine-gun-dias-drop-in-auto-sear/) with constructive possession. That’s great and all, but has no relevance to my point as best I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/137 "2019-10-23T19:38:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think the larger problem is that what was intended as sarcasm can be so easily mistaken for what passes as a serious proposal here on the SDMB. Yeah, but the thing is, in all seriousness, this could easily happen. I use the bump stock ban as an example. That went through with Trump’s help even and fairly bipartisan. Anybody out there that still has a bumpstock is now a criminal. Probably millions of people. Now, few people are complaining about that because it makes a gun almost like a machine gun, an evil sumbitch used it to kill a lot of people, and we’ve already gotten used to the idea that civilians shouldn’t have machine guns. Small price to pay I guess. But they could do the same thing to any number of gun accessories. What’s stopping them? How many felons will there be if they ban 30 round mags, for example, something which many lawmakers want banned, and which many people won’t give up because they will consider it an infringement of their rights? Another 10 million? More? That’s just the tip of the iceberg. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/138 "2019-10-25T17:11:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This thread isn’t intended as a debate about what would be Constitutional or not. k9bfriender had said: “If it is made just a tiny bit harder to get a gun, then it is the outlaws who will encounter the difficulties, not the law abiding.” It occurred to me that if he’s right, if there is indeed some gun control policy where “it is the outlaws that will encounter the difficulties, not the law abiding”, that this would represent some ‘low-hanging fruit’ that both sides of the RKBA debate might readily agree to. Well, I suppose a $1,000 bounty for proof of illegal possession of a firearm that leads to a conviction and a $10,000 bounty for proof of gun dealing that leads to a conviction would place the burden on mostly criminals. It would also make illegal guns a LOT more expensive. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/139 "2019-10-25T18:28:25Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well, I suppose a $1,000 bounty for proof of illegal possession of a firearm that leads to a conviction and a $10,000 bounty for proof of gun dealing that leads to a conviction would place the burden on mostly criminals. It would also make illegal guns a LOT more expensive. Well, I like where you are going but in CA, they did a nasty trick with “assault weapons”- they required you to register them. Ok, sure. But then several sheriffs dept ran out of the forms, and said without the form, you could not register. BUT they said, they would give you a extension until they got the forms back in. Fair. But then SURPRISE!! they then said that wrong. So, many gun owners couldn’t legally register their guns. The second part is good. How about starting it as $1000 bounty for a tip leading to a conviction of a felon with a gun? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925/140 "2019-10-25T18:48:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How about starting it as $1000 bounty for a tip leading to a conviction of a felon with a gun? I like the way it originally was, since the topic is gun control, not felon control(your localized glitch notwithstanding). The people who illegally possess a firearm cannot be considered “law-abiding citizens” so I think **Damuri Ajashi’s** suggestion certainly qualifies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-proposals-for-which-the-burden-falls-on-criminals-and-not-the-law-abiding/841925.md?page=8)