# Gun Control; Toddlers Shooting People **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 18, 2017, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962 "2017-11-18T06:28:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/41 "2017-11-18T20:32:02Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I don’t feel that way, but many of the gun owners do, so who am I to argue? (Bit tongue in cheek there, TBH) My point is only that they are not just endangering themselves and their children, but their neighbors and their neighbor’s children as well. They are taking a risk for their family when they decide to get a gun, the risk being that it is far more likely to injure or kill a family member than it is to be used to ward off bad guys. > > The other people put at risk are not consulted. I kinda felt that way when my neighbor’s kid started driving. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/42 "2017-11-18T20:46:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I kinda felt that way when my neighbor’s kid started driving. So, you would be okay with similar licensing requirements for a gun as for a driver? Driving a car is a bit dangerous, which is why most states require some number of hours of driver’s Ed, and then require that you pass both written and practical tests before giving you unrestricted access. Then, they require that you register the car every year, renew your license every few, and carry insurance. If that was your point, that people should have to take a training class, pass a test, register their guns, renew both periodically, and carry insurance, then I agree. If that wasn’t your point, then I’m not sure that your feeling is relevant in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/43 "2017-11-18T21:02:34Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > This is a cute story, but an apartment full of gun nuts > Leads to additional issues even if there are no guns. Yeah, but it’s a very _polite_ apartment. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/44 "2017-11-18T21:03:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > [Parenting Center: Parenting Tips and Advice from WebMD](https://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20160321/60000-us-kids-treated-for-accidental-medicine-poisoning-a-year#1) > > [Toddler Poisoned by Prescriptions - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/children-overdose-parents-medications/story?id=12423751) > > Anywhoo, lots of kids are poisoned. Lots more than toddlers that are shot by or shoot a gun. > > Not saying its a problem but there are in fact plenty of ways to prevent kids from getting access to guns. They all leave open the possibility of human error or carelessness. But toddlers not killed at a higher rate by poisons, not even when we restrict our analysis to accidental shootings. And you really haven’t presented evidence they are at a higher rate of serious injury. You can’t lump “accidently ate a bunch of laxatives” with “shot”. All this despite the fact that literally every house is stuffed with poisons and they are used daily in many cases. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/45 "2017-11-18T23:32:21Z")
Well to be honest it took me awhile to remove some of my knife collection I had out when I had kids. But I definitely did when they started crawling around. As a gun owner its completely against everything we are taught to leave loaded firearms around where children can get at them. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/46 "2017-11-18T23:55:15Z")
> [@Sanity\_Challenged](#): > > To hell with facts! We want wild, emotional lies to demonize the opponents! OK, and here are the facts. I think what’s most relevant is not the number of toddlers who manage to shoot people, but the number of children themselves who are caught up in America’s gun carnage: _ **Study reveals “staggering” toll of guns on U.S. kids** _ Overall, nearly 1,300 children in the U.S. die in shootings each year and another 5,790 survive gunshot wounds – from handguns, rifles and shotguns – according to the study published today in the journal Pediatrics. The tally makes gunshot wounds the third leading cause of death for children ages 1 to 17 years. > **[Study reveals "staggering" toll of guns on U.S. kids](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gun-deaths-injuries-suicide-up-among-us-kids-staggering-report-reveals/)** > > Gunshot wounds are the third leading cause of death for American children ages 1 to 17, a new study finds Either this CDC study or a similar one I saw a few years ago had another related fact. In studying the rate at which children died from gun injuries in 13 first-world nations, the US had more childhood deaths from guns than all the other 12 countries _ **combined** _. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/47 "2017-11-19T00:28:20Z")
If a toddler gets hold of a gun the owner of that gun should be criminally and civilly responsible for everything that happens to it. That should be the rule for anything that happens with a gun. If you own a gun you are responsible for anything that happens with that gun. Keep it locked up securely, and if it’s taken from you when not locked up it better be by someone with a bigger gun. This simple change will end the problem pretty quickly. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/48 "2017-11-19T03:17:57Z")
So much I want to respond to … **Lemur866’s** post #34 is very insightful, except I’d change it to some gun nuts, there’s many who padlock the loading room … 9-year-olds and 50 lbs kegs of gunpowder is a bad mix in anyone’s home … but toddlers shooting people is all about negligence … > [@madsircool](#): > > But CPS cannot investigate gun owners as a class. They would need some probable cause. If they get a warrant but find that the guns are stored safely they can’t take the kids. Bit its still in everyone’s best interests to store guns safely. They don’t investigate the parents, they act on behalf of the child … a 4-year-old child doesn’t know if his home is unsafe, the government acts in the child’s interest to investigate possible criminal behaviors in the home … kids talk … Child Welfare can tell the parent to get a gun safe, get rid of the guns or lose the kids … > [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Yeah, but it’s a very _polite_ apartment. Profit margin … > [@TriPolar](#): > > If a toddler gets hold of a gun the owner of that gun should be criminally and civilly responsible for everything that happens to it. That should be the rule for anything that happens with a gun. If you own a gun you are responsible for anything that happens with that gun. Keep it locked up securely, and if it’s taken from you when not locked up it better be by someone with a bigger gun. This simple change will end the problem pretty quickly. Yes … I’m completely okay with gun registration … there’s a serial number and the owner is completely responsible for that gun, unless they sell it or report it stolen … in no way does this impede my constitutionally guarantied right\* to own a gun … just like voter registration, right? … common sense regulation, like not allowing peaceful assembly in the middle of the San Diego Freeway during LA rush hour … - = my state constitution explicitly gives this right to the individual … ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/49 "2017-11-19T03:35:11Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/50 "2017-11-19T03:45:36Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > How about we stop treating toddlers and old folks shooting people as “accidents”? > > It’s not an accident when a toddler fires a gun. It’s negligence. Totally agree. > [@](#): > > People who negligently allow their guns to go off should, I don’t know, lose the right to own a fucking gun? If you’re so fucking negligent that a toddler gets your gun and shoots someone then no more firearms for you, my friend. You’re done. If someone dies, then this is usually the case. Its called involuntary manslaughter and it is a felony in many cases. If someone merely gets hurt it is usually a misdemeanor and will not disqualify you from owning a gun. > [@](#): > > But you gun nuts will never admit toddlers shooting people is a problem. And why is that? Because if it’s a problem then we should find a way to mitigate the problem. No, I think the reason people don’t think that toddlers shooting people is a problem is because it is a fairly rare event. It happens something like once a week. Something like ten times that many people get struck by lightning every week. About one dies from lightning strike every week. > [@](#): > > That’s gun control, the first step to gun grabbing. We don’t want gun grabbing, so toddlers shooting people cannot be a problem, case closed, end of story, now is not the time to politicize toddlers shooting people. It’s only a few toddlers ending up dead, that’s the price of freedom, right? I think its more likely the case that when people weigh the harm caused by toddlers shooting people and the harm caused by gun control, they conclude that gun control is more harmful. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/51 "2017-11-19T03:51:31Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > The unspoken in this thread is race; if it’s mostly black kids killing black parents that’s their problem. Right? Just the same as the adult version. Where are you getting this notion? There is plenty of gun violence in black neighborhoods but its mostly gang violence (some of it by kids under 18). Do you have any evidence that black toddlers are killing their parents at a higher rate than white toddlers are killing their parents? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/52 "2017-11-19T03:57:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Try to stay downwind! Sure they may not get your scent but toddlers poop a lot so its really half dozen of one and 6 of another. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/53 "2017-11-19T04:07:19Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, you would be okay with similar licensing requirements for a gun as for a driver? Well, I’m OK with licensing and registration. But driving is not a constitutional right while the right to effective self defense is. > [@](#): > > Driving a car is a bit dangerous, which is why most states require some number of hours of driver’s Ed, and then require that you pass both written and practical tests before giving you unrestricted access. Then, they require that you register the car every year, renew your license every few, and carry insurance. Well I am going to guess that teenage drivers kill a lot more people that toddlers with guns. > [@](#): > > If that was your point, that people should have to take a training class, pass a test, register their guns, renew both periodically, and carry insurance, then I agree. I’d support a gun safety class before getting a gun license. But once again, driving is not a constitutional right. > [@](#): > > If that wasn’t your point, then I’m not sure that your feeling is relevant in any way. Well, it wasn’t my point. Although, I do agree that licensing and registration would probably be an improvement. My point was that we impose risks on others all the time. Getting shot by toddler with gun is a really remote risk. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/54 "2017-11-19T04:19:14Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > How about we stop treating toddlers and old folks shooting people as “accidents”? > > It’s not an accident when a toddler fires a gun. It’s negligence. Something that happens due to negligence is an accident. “Accident” does not mean “without blame.” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/55 "2017-11-19T04:27:18Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > But toddlers not killed at a higher rate by poisons, not even when we restrict our analysis to accidental shootings. And you really haven’t presented evidence they are at a higher rate of serious injury. You can’t lump “accidently ate a bunch of laxatives” with “shot”. All this despite the fact that literally every house is stuffed with poisons and they are used daily in many cases. OK, so do you have a cite that almost all of these are kids ingesting laxatives? The CDC says that 90 children ages 0 to 4 die of poisoning every year. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/56 "2017-11-19T04:31:32Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > OK, and here are the facts. I think what’s most relevant is not the number of toddlers who manage to shoot people, but the number of children themselves who are caught up in America’s gun carnage: > _ **Study reveals “staggering” toll of guns on U.S. kids** _ > Overall, nearly 1,300 children in the U.S. die in shootings each year and another 5,790 survive gunshot wounds – from handguns, rifles and shotguns – according to the study published today in the journal Pediatrics. > > The tally makes gunshot wounds the third leading cause of death for children ages 1 to 17 years. > [Study reveals "staggering" toll of guns on U.S. kids - CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gun-deaths-injuries-suicide-up-among-us-kids-staggering-report-reveals/) > Either this CDC study or a similar one I saw a few years ago had another related fact. In studying the rate at which children died from gun injuries in 13 first-world nations, the US had more childhood deaths from guns than all the other 12 countries _ **combined** _. You realize that almost all of that is teenage gang members shooting each other or teens committing suicide right? Right? ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/57 "2017-11-19T04:36:55Z")
> [@Sanity\_Challenged](#): > > Oh my dear heavens! Why can’t we keep the toddlers away from guns when we can obviously keep them away from poisons! I’m so emotionally fired up to go after them evil guns! > > But no, the insinuation you tried to make is very much wrong. 51 shootings per year is 1 out of every 233,660 toddlers, when 1 out of every 606 toddlers per year is a victim of a poison exposure. ([Poison Stats](https://www.poison.org/poison-statistics-national), [Population Stats](https://www.census.gov/data/datasets/2016/demo/popest/nation-detail.html)) > > You could just stick with the horror of toddlers getting access to firearms and everyone would be behind you. But you have to try to create the impression that it is bigger problem than toddlers getting access to poisons, when in fact poisoning is 385 times more likely - much, much higher than you’d expect if we were “better at”, or at least “just as good at” keeping poisons away from children than at keeping firearms away from children, considering that there are firearms in 1/3 of homes. A reasonable person starts wondering why you’re trying so hard to mislead them, and you lose all credibility and support for a cause that damn near nobody wouldn’t get behind. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Over 50K kids under the age of 5 are treated every year in emergency rooms for taking prescription medication. > > something like 5% of children under the age of 6 are poisoned every year. Mostly 1 and 2 year olds. > > So no we haven’t learned how to childproof the world for kids yet. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > [Parenting Center: Parenting Tips and Advice from WebMD](https://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20160321/60000-us-kids-treated-for-accidental-medicine-poisoning-a-year#1) > > [Toddler Poisoned by Prescriptions - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/children-overdose-parents-medications/story?id=12423751) > > Anywhoo, lots of kids are poisoned. Lots more than toddlers that are shot by or shoot a gun. > > Not saying its a problem but there are in fact plenty of ways to prevent kids from getting access to guns. They all leave open the possibility of human error or carelessness. These are inapposite _diversions_: the OP deals with toddlers shooting **others** — not the myriad dangers of toddlerhood. Toddlers rarely use household items to poison their enemies. Or even their friends. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/58 "2017-11-19T07:49:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK, so do you have a cite that almost all of these are kids ingesting laxatives? You can’t actually think that **Manda Jo** was suggesting that all child poisonings are caused by laxatives, can you? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/59 "2017-11-19T07:59:39Z")
I’m struggling to see the connection between gun control and laxatives. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962/60 "2017-11-19T15:12:33Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > I’m struggling to see the connection between gun control and laxatives. Gun control freaks need to use laxatives? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-toddlers-shooting-people/801962.md?page=4)