# Gun control, Tyranny and Genocide... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800 "2013-01-02T03:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/201 "2013-01-04T00:10:26Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > And what is “needed” for hunting? Really nothing, since hunting hasn’t been needed for many years. Since vegetarians seem very healthy, I guess you could make a case that it’s never been needed. But when it was needed for carnivores, people with no more intelligence than you did fine, for millienia, with spears and clubs. > [@](#): > > Should we outlaw the XBOX360 because it isn’t “needed” and contributes to low cardio health? Those strike me as inadequate reasons. If it killed instantly if misused, you would have a stronger case, IMO. > [@](#): > > As for home defense it is not overkill, an AR15 is easier to shoot than pistols or shotguns especially during times of stress. It is also more effective in the highly unlikely chance you need to use it. I’m a veteran with a dozen guns myself, and I disagree that an AR15 is easier to shoot than a revolver. I know that when I taught my wife and kids how to shoot, they learned pistols much faster than rifles. I hope I don’t get into trouble by revealing that my preferred home defense weapon is already illegal, namely a short-barrel shotgun. And it’s just my opinion, but if you can’t put someone down with six shots from a revolver, then I don’t want you shooting an AR15 within half a mile of my home. > [@](#): > > Also note that the deadliest school shooting (VA tech) was done with a 22 pistol and a 9mm pistol that had a 10 round mag. Noted, but if your point is that we should also ban 22 pistols, then I disagree. And that’s the only cogent point that I could imagine you were trying to make. Surely you weren’t using the same idiotic logic that would say, “Some pedestrians are killed by cars traveling only 30mph, so we should abolish speed limits within cities.” > [@](#): > > By what measure are you claiming they faux label of “assault weapon” are “only good for shooting up schools” You got me, I overstated the case. They are also good for shooting up shopping malls and movie theaters. And it goes without saying that they are excellent for their intended purpose, namely assault. > [@](#): > > Or will you admit that this rant is more about your assumptions than fact? Your rant has very little to do with … oh, you mean _my_ rant? Yes, I shamefully admit that my assumptions have a great deal to do with what I write. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/202 "2013-01-04T00:49:30Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Really nothing, since hunting hasn’t been needed for many years. Since vegetarians seem very healthy, I guess you could make a case that it’s never been needed. But when it was needed for carnivores, people with no more intelligence than you did fine, for millienia, with spears and clubs. > > Those strike me as inadequate reasons. If it killed instantly if misused, you would have a stronger case, IMO. Ah, so the fact there is no need for hunting is a reason to ban them? So we should ban bolt action hunting rifle, skeet guns etc…? I think you may want to talk to a wildlife management agency about there being no “need” for hunting though. Deer hunting is a critical numbers management tool to help prevent mass starvation etc… > [@TonySinclair](#): > > I’m a veteran with a dozen guns myself, and I disagree that an AR15 is easier to shoot than a revolver. I know that when I taught my wife and kids how to shoot, they learned pistols much faster than rifles. I hope I don’t get into trouble by revealing that my preferred home defense weapon is already illegal, namely a short-barrel shotgun. And it’s just my opinion, but if you can’t put someone down with six shots from a revolver, then I don’t want you shooting an AR15 within half a mile of my home. So you admit to actively committing a felony by having a shotgun with a barrel shorter than 18" on a public message board? Wow…Also you do realize that a shotgun with 00 buck tends to go through more walls and cover than a .223 bullet. Even your revolver slugs are more likely to exit your home than a .223 hollow point. Go have your kids run at top speed for half a mile and then shoot as soon as they stop…tell me which one they are more accurate with, a pistol or a rifle. That semi replicates the loss of fine motor controls that happen when you have an adrenaline dump. > [@TonySinclair](#): > > Noted, but if your point is that we should also ban 22 pistols, then I disagree. And that’s the only cogent point that I could imagine you were trying to make. Surely you weren’t using the same idiotic logic that would say, “Some pedestrians are killed by cars traveling only 30mph, so we should abolish speed limits within cities.” Why, Pistols are about 320 times as likely to be used to murder someone each year than any “assault weapon”. The speed limit statement is purely a straw man argument. > [@TonySinclair](#): > > You got me, I overstated the case. They are also good for shooting up shopping malls and movie theaters. And it goes without saying that they are excellent for their intended purpose, namely assault. > > Your rant has very little to do with … oh, you mean _my_ rant? Yes, I shamefully admit that my assumptions have a great deal to do with what I write. OK, pretty much any gun is good for a spree killing, there is little to no functional difference between an “assault weapon” and a “normal” firearm. And seeing it is a fake term that was invented DECADES after almost all of the firearms it is used to describe I would say your assumption on design has little to do with reality. But thank you for admitting you are debating not with facts but just opinion. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/203 "2013-01-04T01:34:24Z")
Nothing I enjoy more than being preached at by a felon. You just lost any cred with me bub. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/204 "2013-01-04T01:40:10Z")
I guess there’s nothing left to live for. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/205 "2013-01-04T01:46:29Z")
And to provide a cite, here is a quote and a link to a document explaining why police officers prefer a .223 rifle for defense. Sure the distance and body armor requirements aren’t needed for self defense but to claim they small rifle caliber semi auto rifles are useless for self defense is false. > [@](#): > > To summarize, of the three types of weapons under consideration, the .223 caliber rifle is by far the most accurate. Because of this, its effective range is also superior to the other choices. In the area of wounding effectiveness, the .223 caliber is, again, superior to the pistol calibers. The shotgun, at close ranges, is probably the most devastating firearm that there is. But pistol calibers and shotguns penetrate more through common building materials than the .223 caliber bullet, which increases the chance that an innocent bystander could be seriously hurt by a missed round that penetrates a wall. Moreover, pistol caliber bullets and shotgun slugs and buckshot will not penetrate body armor, while .223 caliber bullets will. Cite: Warning PDF www.evergreen.edu/policeservices/docs/armingofficerstosucceed.pdf It also covers the topic of accuracy compared to pistols and why the rifle is a better idea. Note: I am not pasting this to argue that pistols aren’t dangerous, I am posting this to counter the idea that .223 rifles are worthless for home defense which is stated as fact several times in this and other threads. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/206 "2013-01-04T02:21:05Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I guess there’s nothing left to live for. Fucking hypocrite telling me that my guns have no value other than shooting up places while you brag about an illegal gun with no intrinsic value other than to saw a man in half. That’s rich… ---
**Author:** ![Tlon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@Tlon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tlon)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/207 "2013-01-04T02:21:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s nonsense. Gun control is about the rather obvious idea that if guns are dangerous, they should be gotten rid of. The pro-gun side is much more inclined towards totalitarianism, many of them acting like proto-death squads with their speeches about Second Amendment solutions. If there’s a dictatorship in this country it won’t be about the Evil Democrats imposing gun control, it’ll be some American version of the Brownshirts kicking in the doors of suspected liberals, atheists, homosexuals and feminists and gunning down them and their families for Guns, God and FREEDOM!! Frankly, this is one of the primary reasons for owning a gun. I’m not afraid of the criminals with guns. I’m afraid of the right-wing nut cases with guns. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/208 "2013-01-04T02:26:42Z")
> [@Tlon](#): > > Frankly, this is one of the primary reasons for owning a gun. I’m not afraid of the criminals with guns. I’m afraid of the right-wing nut cases with guns. What did you buy to defend yourself from the RW hordes? I saw a bunch of them right wingers at a Kiwanis meeting on my way home tonight. Never can be too careful. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/209 "2013-01-04T02:33:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s nonsense. Gun control is about the rather obvious idea that if guns are dangerous, they should be gotten rid of. The pro-gun side is much more inclined towards totalitarianism, many of them acting like proto-death squads with their speeches about Second Amendment solutions. If there’s a dictatorship in this country it won’t be about the Evil Democrats imposing gun control, it’ll be some American version of the Brownshirts kicking in the doors of suspected liberals, atheists, homosexuals and feminists and gunning down them and their families for Guns, God and FREEDOM!! More straw men than the county fair’s scarecrow contest. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Tlon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@Tlon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tlon)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/210 "2013-01-04T03:05:40Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > What did you buy to defend yourself from the RW hordes? I saw a bunch of them right wingers at a Kiwanis meeting on my way home tonight. Never can be too careful. An AR-15, of course. As has been clearly argued on this board and elsewhere, it’s one of the most effect tools for the job. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/211 "2013-01-04T03:11:18Z")
> [@Tlon](#): > > An AR-15, of course. As has been clearly argued on this board and elsewhere, it’s one of the most effect tools for the job. Easy fella, welcome to the tribe! I own several myself. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/212 "2013-01-04T03:11:41Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Sure the distance and body armor requirements aren’t needed for self defense but to claim they small rifle caliber semi auto rifles are useless for self defense is false. Jesus, you’re agreeing with me. I said they were overkill for self defense; you said their best features aren’t needed for self defense. Keep posting; we’ll win this thing yet! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/213 "2013-01-04T03:15:57Z")
The chance of a holocaust or imposition of tyranny in my lifetime is zero, imho. The chance of a temporary breakdown of law & order due to a natural disaster or some other cause is small, but nonzero. I have two weapons which use high-capacity magazines. They are my insurance; something to defend my food stash & family with on the slim probability that my part of the world becomes a temporary hell. ---
**Author:** ![Danger-Mouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Danger-Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danger-Mouse)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/214 "2013-01-04T03:26:47Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Waco is your example of.positive and desirable gun ownership? I thought gun needers were all about “enforce existing gun laws”! > > Shooting people when they attempt to serve a warrant seems like a crazy bad example of gun ownership. Are you sure you want to build your argument to the American people in favor of liberal gun access on the Branch Davidians? > > I think I prefer the “I stand on the wall” guys to the “black helicopters are gonna get us” guys. 76 ATF officers and 3 helicopters to serve a warrant? They were trying to take the children off the property, however you feel about this religion, or any other religion for that matter means nothing, if two sheriffs showed up with a warrant, this would have been avoided. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/215 "2013-01-04T03:28:43Z")
> [@Tlon](#): > > I’m afraid of the right-wing nut cases with guns. Funny. [You’re not the only one to think that](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14637790&postcount=18). ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/216 "2013-01-04T03:34:39Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Fucking hypocrite Easy, big guy. This is GD, not the Pit. > [@](#): > > telling me that my guns have no value other than shooting up places False. I didn’t say they had no value; I said they were not needed for hunting or home defense. Obviously they can be used for both, but IMO they are overkill for both, unless you’re attacked by stampeding buffalo. > [@](#): > > while you brag about an illegal gun with no intrinsic value other than to saw a man in half. I didn’t brag, but it has a lot of advantages for home defense, especially compared to a rifle. Easier to stash, easier to grab, easier to handle in close quarters, more forgiving of aim when you’re in a hurry. And only an idiot would load it with full power 00 buckshot. It’s very easy to load, or even buy off the shelf, shells that will ruin an assailant’s day without endangering the neighbors. > [@](#): > > That’s rich… You are entitled to your opinion. In _my_ opinion, it’s rich that your panties are in a wad because I’m not complying with a federal law, while you have been posting about your fantasies of shooting federal agents or troops if they make a law you disagree with. Which, in light of what they’ve already done, seems pretty hard to do. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/217 "2013-01-04T04:09:53Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Easy, big guy. This is GD, not the Pit. Thanks, appreciate the junior modding. I’d probably lay off if I gave a shit what you think at this point. You are the epitome of why gun owners have such a bad name. Harboring illegal weapons while coming off as some sort of expert due to your time in the service? All we as _responsible_ gun owners need is for someone to break in to your house swipe that scatter gun and then shoot up a school. The rest of us take another unnecessary hit because you can’t follow the law. > [@](#): > > I didn’t brag, but it has a lot of advantages for home defense, especially compared to a rifle. Easier to stash, easier to grab, easier to handle in close quarters, more forgiving of aim when you’re in a hurry. No shit. I’d love to have one myself, but they are illegal in my state so I don’t. > [@](#): > > And only an idiot would load it with 00 buckshot. It’s very easy to load, or even buy off the shelf, shells that will ruin an assailant’s day without endangering the neighbors. I said nothing about buckshot. I load my _ **legal** _ shotgun with 2 shot myself. > [@](#): > > You are entitled to your opinion. In _my_ opinion, it’s rich that your panties are in a wad because I’m not complying with a federal law, while you have been posting about your fantasies of shooting federal agents or troops if they make a law you disagree with. And… I said nothing about shooting federal agents over laws that I disagree with either. Go ahead and cite where I did or I expect you to admit that it’s just more fucking bullshit coming from you. You got called out for being a felon and now you are stretching to attach the same level of stupid on me. I don’t need any help saying stupid shit, it happens from time to time. You don’t need to make it up. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/218 "2013-01-04T04:17:27Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > And… I said nothing of the sort about shooting federal agents, or laws that I disagree with either. Go ahead and cite where I did or I expect you to admit that it’s just more fucking bullshit coming from you. You got called out for being a felon and now you are stretching to attach the same level of stupid on me. Oh, get over yourself. You and Rat Avatar are tag teaming me, so I’m just responding to all the anti-me posts at once, that’s all. I guess it was Ratso who was talking about my shotgun going through my walls, but big deal. I’m giving the Fiesta Bowl ten times the attention I’m giving this stupid debate. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/219 "2013-01-04T04:27:40Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Oh, get over yourself. You and Rat Avatar are tag teaming me, so I got some of what he said about my shotgun pellets penetrating the walls and fighting the feds mixed up with your equally hysterical posts, that’s all. I’m giving the Fiesta Bowl ten times the attention I’m giving this stupid debate. God forbid you keep up. Try harder next time. Here is a clue, each post is clearly labeled with a name. That name is who typed it up. I have no problem linking posts by Tony Sinclair with the person who is a felon and enjoys telling us what guns are or are not worthy based upon his career in the service and teaching his family to shoot. It’s really not that hard. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/220 "2013-01-04T04:33:10Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > God forbid you keep up. Try harder next time. Here is a clue, each post is clearly labeled with a name. To paraphrase somebody, I’d probably try harder if I gave a shit what you think at this point. Have a good evening, and be sure not to saw people in half with your #2 birdshot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800.md?page=12)