# Gun control, Tyranny and Genocide... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800 "2013-01-02T03:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/261 "2013-01-04T20:52:43Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Both were semi-automatic. A majority of the American public favors banning semi-automatic weapons. No they don’t:[Americans Want Stricter Gun Laws, Still Oppose Bans](http://www.gallup.com/poll/159569/americans-stricter-gun-laws-oppose-bans.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/262 "2013-01-04T20:54:16Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’d love to see all CCW permits revoked. But you have to start somewhere. Why, have they increased crimes and murders? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/263 "2013-01-04T20:56:22Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > No they don’t:[http://www.gallup.com/poll/159569/americans-stricter-gun-laws-oppose-bans.aspx](http://www.gallup.com/poll/159569/americans-stricter-gun-laws-oppose-bans.aspx) I don’t think gallup is going to be a good cite here: > **[Study: PPP Most Accurate Pollster Of 2012, Rasmussen And Gallup Among Least...](https://outsidethebeltway.com/study-ppp-most-accurate-pollster-of-2012-rasmussen-and-gallup-among-least-accurate/)** > > Dr. Costas Panagopoulos, Director of Fordham University's Department Of Political Science has released the result of his study of poll accuracy in the 2012 election, and the results are as follows: > 1. PPP (D)\*1. Daily Kos/SEIU/PPP\*3. YouGov\*4.... Maybe find a more reliable pollster to bolster your argument than one of the worst ones out there. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/264 "2013-01-04T21:08:37Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Why, have they increased crimes and murders? This ain’t the fucking wild wild west. I’d feel much safer with fewer halfwits out there packing heat. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/265 "2013-01-04T21:30:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > This ain’t the fucking wild wild west. I’d feel much safer with fewer halfwits out there packing heat. [Luckily the homicide rate is at the lowest rate in 50 years and outside of a post World War II dip that may have been caused by the number of young men who died we are at a all time historically low homicide rate.](http://thepublicintellectual.org/2011/05/02/a-crime-puzzle/) And yes we should still try to get it down as low as possible. Be glad this is not the wild west, the shootout at the OK corral was caused by “law enforcement” trying to enforce a gun ban 🙂 Calling people names you shows what this is really about, support for gun control is more a product of culture conflict than a response to crime. One study said the facts only move people by about 25%. Note: It tends to be pretty difficult to talk people over to your side when you resort to ad hominem attacks and name calling. It also tends to show you have nothing to offer in form of valid debate material. I have no desire to “pack heat” but I realize that some people NEED to and the others who are “enthusiasts” have a pretty low risk vector. They tend to be a very law abiding and non-violent group and are much safer to hang around than the general population. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/266 "2013-01-04T21:37:22Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Anything specific that’s false? Yes. Their premise and conclusion, as well as the impression that they have evaluated the elements of their argument in any meaningful or thorough fashion. > [@](#): > > But the argument isn’t that disarmed societies must have genocide. It’s just that an armed society increases the attackers cost of doing so, such that it’s not possible or not worth trying. Do you disagree? The argument is that the benefits of firearm ownership, in particular preventing genocide, outweigh the risks. It sure as fuck matters what the likelihood of a genocide is. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/267 "2013-01-04T21:41:26Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I have no desire to “pack heat” but I realize that some people NEED to and the others who are “enthusiasts” have a pretty low risk vector. They tend to be a very law abiding and non-violent group and are much safer to hang around than the general population. That’s not accurate. 100% of gun crimes and gun accidents are caused by someone with a gun. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/268 "2013-01-04T21:46:17Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > That’s not accurate. 100% of gun crimes and gun accidents are caused by someone with a gun. Seeing as the context of this was in relation to people who are concealed carry permit holders do you have a cite that they are responsible for 100% of gun crimes and accidents? I am quite sure you are capable of using more than inductive hyperbole in a debate so why not try it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/269 "2013-01-04T21:50:01Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Seeing as the context of this was in relation to people who are concealed carry permit holders do you have a cite that they are responsible for 100% of gun crimes and accidents? Do you have a cite that people who NEED to pack heat and/or are enthusiasts are much safer than the general public or that they tend to be law abiding? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/270 "2013-01-04T21:53:10Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > The argument is that the benefits of firearm ownership, in particular preventing genocide, outweigh the risks. It sure as fuck matters what the likelihood of a genocide is. I’m not convinced you know what genocide is. But for sake of argument, let’s say in the US the likelihood currently 0, can you name some countries were it isn’t? Can you name a country where the likelihood of genocide is high? For those that do know what genocide is, the availability of guns/weapons seems to result in civil war. Two interesting case studies for anyone interested are Syria and Libya, my opinion is that guns played a rather large roll in those conflicts. In Libya it was obvious that international forces were required to eventually tip the balance. But notice that in Syria the international community is still on the sidelines. Meanwhile the Syrian air force has had a incredibly difficult time, resulting a significant number of defections–that’s frequently what happens when the military is asked to kill its own citizens. To really throw gas on the fire, look at the situation in Palestine. You’d think AK47s grew on trees despite Israel doing everything it can to lock down the Gaza Strip. Obviously the presence of guns plays a pretty significant role for the Palestinians despite Israel having every possible technological advantage. Again, in my opinion, guns are the only thing preventing either side from committing genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/271 "2013-01-04T22:07:05Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > This ain’t the fucking wild wild west. I’d feel much safer with fewer halfwits out there packing heat. You didn’t answer the question. Have CCW permits led to an increase in murder or crime? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/272 "2013-01-04T22:18:25Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I don’t think gallup is going to be a good cite here: > > [Study: PPP Most Accurate Pollster Of 2012, Rasmussen And Gallup Among Least Accurate – Outside the Beltway](http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/study-ppp-most-accurate-pollster-of-2012-rasmussen-and-gallup-among-least-accurate/) > > Maybe find a more reliable pollster to bolster your argument than one of the worst ones out there. Pew found much the same. [After Newtown, Modest Change in Opinion about Gun Control | Pew Research Center](http://www.people-press.org/2012/12/20/after-newtown-modest-change-in-opinion-about-gun-control/) They OK? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/273 "2013-01-04T22:22:18Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I’m not convinced you know what genocide is. But for sake of argument, let’s say in the US the likelihood currently 0, can you name some countries were it isn’t? Can you name a country where the likelihood of genocide is high? What exactly makes you think I don’t know what genocide is? But if you assume that the likelihood of genocide in the US is 0, then the benefit of private firearms ownership in the US for the purpose of fending off genocide is 0. Thank you for playing! To be clear, I have expressed no opinion on private firearms ownership in other countries. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/274 "2013-01-04T22:31:09Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Do you have a cite that people who NEED to pack heat and/or are enthusiasts are much safer than the general public or that they tend to be law abiding? [ > [@](#): > > There is also little evidence that law-abiding permit holders are a threat to public safety. The state of Florida, which has issued over 2 million concealed carry permits since it adopted a `right-to-carry’ law in 1987, has revoked just 6,400 permits (just 0.3 percent of the total issued permits) and just 168 concealed carry permits were revoked due to the use of a firearm in a crime (just 0.008 percent). ]([http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/T?&report=hr277&dbname=112&](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/T?&report=hr277&dbname=112&)) And lets look at Texas, in 2011 they had 518,625 permit holders and 120 convictions for a conviction rate of 0.0231% of permit holders. Of the disqualifying violent offences Texas with a population of 25,674,681 convicted 63,679 for the same crimes or a conviction rate of 0.248%. Cite: warning PDF [http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2011.pdf](http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2011.pdf) So yes…with very basic math a Texas permit holder is 10 times less likely to be convicted of those crimes as a random Texan. And in Kansas [Few crimes committed by concealed-carry permit holders in Kansas](http://www.kansas.com/2012/11/17/2572467/few-crimes-committed-by-concealed.html) ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/275 "2013-01-04T22:35:03Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Yes. Their premise and conclusion, as well as the impression that they have evaluated the elements of their argument in any meaningful or thorough fashion. That’s very general. Something you could have said without reading the article. Any specific facts or citations that are incorrect? > [@](#): > > The argument is that the benefits of firearm ownership, in particular preventing genocide, outweigh the risks. It sure as fuck matters what the likelihood of a genocide is. Of course likelihood of an event matters as does the magnitude of the consequences. So something with a 1/1000 chance of happening but can result in millions of deaths is still pretty meaningful. Agree or no? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/276 "2013-01-04T22:44:48Z")
I should note that around 7.5% of Texans above the age of 18 have a permit so that is a good number to look at when comparing the number of convictions among permit holders on my cite. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/277 "2013-01-04T22:46:40Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > What exactly makes you think I don’t know what genocide is? Based on everything you’ve said in this thread, for example: > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > But if you assume that the likelihood of genocide in the US is 0, then the benefit of private firearms ownership in the US for the purpose of fending off genocide is 0. Thank you for playing! You are making a connection between the risk of genocide, and the benefits of gun ownership. In this case, zero risk means zero benefit. So what happens we we make the risk of genocide to something non-zero, does the benefit also go up? > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > To be clear, I have expressed no opinion on private firearms ownership in other countries. Yes you did, “Uh, yeah, I remember when we were expelled from Iraq.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/278 "2013-01-05T00:09:46Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > A rational person would look at it like this: > > What are the chances that a natural disaster willl occur that is sufficiently serious that law will break down and I will need a gun to fend off the ravenous hordes who want my stash of Oreos and cream soda vs the chance that someone in my house will accidentally shoot themselves, commit suicide, or mistakenly shoot someone that they think is a threat. The chances of a national disaster occurring are regional so YMMV as to the safety of your Oreos. What is not regional is crime. Same goes for hunting. If you’re worried about accidentally shooting yourself or committing suicide then you probably out to turn in your drivers license. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/279 "2013-01-05T06:38:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The chances of a national disaster occurring are regional… The chances of a national disaster are regional? ---
**Author:** ![momosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@momosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/momosa)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800/280 "2013-01-05T08:57:51Z")
Never gonna take our right to defend ourselves… I just sent yet another check off to the NRA…when the cops are a phone call & minutes away, my gun is right here in my pocket & ready to rock!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-tyranny-and-genocide/645800.md?page=15)