# Gun control wouldn't have stopped what happened in Vegas...should we do it anyway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873 "2017-10-03T15:32:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/221 "2017-10-04T22:09:30Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m seeing a consensus emerge on the right about the need to ban bump stocks. I have one. If someone wanted to setup a buyback, I’d participate. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/222 "2017-10-04T22:10:10Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > It’s not the United States I currently know. > > It’s the one we can aspire to, however. > > A United States without slavery was not a United States people in the 1850s knew. It didn’t stop the right thing from happening. 1. You’re forgetting an extremely bloody war between half the states and the other half. It was not accomplished by an amendment. 2. Slavery was not Constitutionally enshrined. It may have been tacitly acknowledged, but holding a slave not declared as a right. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/223 "2017-10-04T22:15:41Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > 1. You’re forgetting an extremely bloody war between half the states and the other half. It was not accomplished by an amendment. I take it as given that 30% of gun owners would turn into spree shooters the moment a law was passed that would allow the confiscation of firearms. I’m sure it would be bloody enough for your tastes. > [@Okrahoma](#): > > 1. Slavery was not Constitutionally enshrined. It may have been tacitly acknowledged, but holding a slave not declared as a right. The way law works is you have the right to anything unless and until it’s prohibited. And the second amendment doesn’t actually declare gun-owning as a right either. It just promises that your existing right to own a nuclear bomb shall not be infringed later - until it’s repealed, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/224 "2017-10-04T22:22:16Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > I have one. If someone wanted to setup a buyback, I’d participate. This is good. Thanks for being here. Have you used it much? Would you agree with the premise that it is no more effective than manual squeezing of the trigger in rapid warfare-level shooting? Let’s say you were in the audience in Las Vegas. What would be your thought process on evaluating whether you were being shot at with a bump vs not a bump? Is your fear factor increased? How much? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/225 "2017-10-04T22:24:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Any pro-gun folks want to chime in on the legality of bump-stocks (or cranks, or other semi-to-auto functionality mods)? Is it reasonable to consider re-evaluating this? I feel like I ought to point out here that it’s perfectly possible to “bump fire” a semi-auto without a specialized stock or anything. And it’s trivially easy to make a home-made bump-fire stock. For example, here is [a video of one in action](https://youtu.be/nlFZOBiWRko) and [step-by-step instructions for making one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGUfyT0O0dM) out of parts you could pick up at Home Depot). [Here is another one, for an AR-15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TguwqftpOGU). Look at the parts for that. He’s got a regular AR stock, a zip tie, a piece of bent metal, a few nuts and bolts, and some Kydex material. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/226 "2017-10-04T22:27:13Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The way law works is you have the right to anything unless and until it’s prohibited. Correct. And you cannot prohibit owning arms because the right to bear arms is in the Constitution - you have to first change the Constitution. You can, though, prohibit owning slaves because the right to own slaves is NOT in the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/227 "2017-10-04T22:28:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I feel like I ought to point out here that it’s perfectly possible to “bump fire” a semi-auto without a specialized stock or anything. And it’s trivially easy to make a home-made bump-fire stock. For example, here is [a video of one in action](https://youtu.be/nlFZOBiWRko) and [step-by-step instructions for making one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGUfyT0O0dM) out of parts you could pick up at Home Depot). Well of course Home Depot will need to be outlawed. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/228 "2017-10-04T22:32:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m seeing a consensus emerge on the right about the need to ban bump stocks. LOL. Great, folks will sleep so much better at night. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/229 "2017-10-04T22:34:49Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Correct. And you cannot prohibit owning arms because the right to bear arms is in the Constitution - you have to first change the Constitution. > > You can, though, prohibit owning slaves because the right to own slaves is NOT in the Constitution. Hey, nobody said it would be _easy_. But there’s nothing magical about the second amendment that makes it impossible to remove either. It would just require the populace to massively react to Trump and his allies by voting a supermajority of Democrats in, and for them to all subsequently grow massive balls and perhaps a dash of morals. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/230 "2017-10-04T22:37:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I feel like I ought to point out here that it’s perfectly possible to “bump fire” a semi-auto without a specialized stock or anything. And it’s trivially easy to make a home-made bump-fire stock. For example, here is [a video of one in action](https://youtu.be/nlFZOBiWRko) and [step-by-step instructions for making one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGUfyT0O0dM) out of parts you could pick up at Home Depot). > > [Here is another one, for an AR-15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TguwqftpOGU). Look at the parts for that. He’s got a regular AR stock, a zip tie, a piece of bent metal, a few nuts and bolts, and some Kydex material. So you agree it automates the act of killing while shooting at crowds, making it more efficient than an unmodified piece? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/231 "2017-10-04T22:39:38Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > 1. You’re forgetting an extremely bloody war between half the states and the other half. It was not accomplished by an amendment. It didn’t have to be that way, of course. It’s only that some people really, really liked owning black people. Other amendments were passed without bloody wars, because people didn’t feel as strongly about alcohol or women’s suffrage as they did about really, really wanting to own black people. > [@Okrahoma](#): > > 1. Slavery was not Constitutionally enshrined. It may have been tacitly acknowledged, but holding a slave not declared as a right. Ultimately irrelevant. It didn’t prohibit it, and the US Constitution states that the black man isn’t worth a white man: > [@](#): > > Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3: > Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. That it took an amendment and a bloody war to do stop people doing something that morally reprehensible tells you how strongly some people can believe in something even though it’s inherently wrong. You may want to think about that. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/232 "2017-10-04T22:41:34Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Once again - in order to repeal the second amendment, you have to fundamentally change the US society first. Correct. This is the necessary culture change I referred to earlier if there is going to be progress on the gun problem. Why is that a bad thing? Society is changing all the time, sometimes fundamentally. It’s going to be different ten years from now than it is today, and more different still in half a century. The real question is whether the transformations we can control are beneficial or detrimental, not whether society will fundamentally change, because it always will. > [@Okrahoma](#): > > Once you do that, it won’t be US anymore. So yes, there will be a plethora of “other options” in this not-United-States-anymore country. You might be interested to know that the vast majority of countries have no constitutional guarantee of gun ownership, but they still have guns. Conversely, the US does have some gun laws, notwithstanding the Second Amendment, without which laws things would be even worse than they already are. So I don’t see how the constitutional guarantee figures in a national identity in any important way. The extent of gun ownership and its regulation comes not from the constitution but fundamentally from culture. As for not being the US any more, it seems to me that the right to shoot beer cans off fence posts is a pretty shallow basis for a national identity. Perhaps a bit of a hyperbolic way to phrase it but unless one has a serious occupational need for a gun that’s what it amounts to. Or is there something about the roughly 15,000 Americans who get shot dead every year that’s an important part of the national identity? Or maybe you mean the long list of politicians who have been shot over the years in America, which is definitely a uniquely iconic American phenomenon but seems like an even worse basis for a national identity. Is anyone really proud of that? Personally, I’d rather associate a national identity with a guarantee of universal health care instead of guns, but that’s just me. Well, me and the entirety of the civilized world. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/233 "2017-10-04T22:44:33Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Yep. Also stronger background checks, required safety courses, and outlawing of high lethality assault weapons, but overall this stuff is likely to decrease gun violence much more than any gun control measures that are politically feasible in the foreseeable future. Assault weapons make up an astonishingly small percentage of gun violence. Any ban, is unlikely to move the meter much at all. Safety classes may lesson those few accidental deaths every year, but again those numbers are pretty small too. I’d like to see the thought behind stronger background checks reducing gun violence. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/234 "2017-10-04T22:52:10Z")
I have no hope that gun violence in America will be solved in my lifetime. I hold out hope that by the time my kids are old enough to live in the United States on their own, we might have made a dent. Raising the prices on cigarettes and making it harder to smoke in public places, public awareness campaigns, package requirements - guess what, smoking has declined. Same thing with drunk driving. Lead paint. Asbestos. Mandatory seat belt laws. Guns are simply waiting for their turn. If we start now by requiring some form of smartgun technology, taxing the crap out of guns and ammo, mandatory background checks and waiting periods, onerous penalties for unsafe handling, some sort of gun liability insurance requirement, massive buyback programs - make guns less profitable and less socially acceptable to sell / buy / own, except for sport and hunting. There are any number of ideas that could be tried and debated and implemented. If you really want a gun, sure - maybe you can have one, but you’re going to have to WORK for it. It should be harder to get a gun than a driver’s license. Hell, it should be harder to get a gun than a private pilot’s license. Making guns unprofitable to sell + buyback programs? Number of guns in circulation will go down. Not overnight, but over time. I can live with that - how many thousands might also live with that? In thirty years, I strongly believe we could make a dent. That’s probably too long of time for me, but maybe my kids can someday come to the US and feel as safe as they do in the UK or Japan. But we could do something. If we have the will. If we really wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/235 "2017-10-04T22:54:35Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Well of course Home Depot will need to be outlawed. And index fingers. And 14-inch shoestrings. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/236 "2017-10-04T22:58:20Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Assault weapons make up an astonishingly small percentage of gun violence. Any ban, is unlikely to move the meter much at all. Safety classes may lesson those few accidental deaths every year, but again those numbers are pretty small too. > > I’d like to see the thought behind stronger background checks reducing gun violence. To the first paragraph, I agree, as a percentage of gun deaths it wouldn’t be a huge reduction, but those are the low hanging fruit; the things we can do that would prevent some deaths without unduly burdening law-abiding citizens. Likewise, stronger background checks would make it somewhat more difficult for criminals to get guns. There’s no magic…um, spell that’s going to solve the problem completely and quickly. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/237 "2017-10-04T22:58:20Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > So you agree it automates the act of killing while shooting at crowds, making it more efficient than an unmodified piece? How did you get _THAT_ out of my post? No, I do not agree that it “automates the act of killing” nor do I agree that it makes it more efficient. I was just observing that banning bump fire stocks is probably an exercise in futility. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/238 "2017-10-04T23:01:24Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > There’s no magic…um, spell that’s going to solve the problem completely and quickly. In that case, there’s clearly no reason to try anything at all. That, at least, seems to be gun nutter’s stance. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/239 "2017-10-04T23:01:26Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Assault weapons make up an astonishingly small percentage of gun violence. Any ban, is unlikely to move the meter much at all. Safety classes may lesson those few accidental deaths every year, but again those numbers are pretty small too. > > I’d like to see the thought behind stronger background checks reducing gun violence. I think there are roughly four classes of ‘problem people’ regarding gun ownership: 1. spree shooters 2. other criminals 3. the suicidal 4. the dipshits who don’t lock them up where their kids can’t get them. Banning assault/non-single-fire weapons addresses only the first group. Safety classes address only the fourth group. Background checks address…well, I gather that crooks have other ways to get guns for the most part. But if we illegalized and cracked down on person-to-person sales, which I gather tend to be untracked and undocumented, that would probably help with the criminals some. The only thing that would help the suicidal would be to ban handguns, and the second amendment is quite firm about protecting a man’s right to blow his own brains out with minimal difficulty. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/240 "2017-10-04T23:03:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m seeing a consensus emerge on the right about the need to ban bump stocks. Where are you seeing that? I’m on the right, and damnit, it looks like I’m on the outside of yet another “consensus” looking in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873.md?page=13)