# Gun control wouldn't have stopped what happened in Vegas...should we do it anyway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873 "2017-10-03T15:32:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/501 "2017-10-11T01:53:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You mean, takes responsibility for your actions off the table. I get that there are laws that protect you from the liability, I am saying that these laws should not be shielding you from liability. What laws protect me from liability if you get shot by a criminal? Why would I need the protection? Why would I be responsible for your getting shot? > [@](#): > > In order to protect your right to have a gun, society will suffer some. People will get hurt and killed, in order to protect your right to have a gun. You want society to protect that right for you, but you want to give nothing back to those who are harmed by it. Nope, society doesn’t have to protect my right. Just get 2/3rds of both houses of congress and 3/4ths of the states to repeal the second amendment and then you can petition your government to change the laws any way you want. I will do the same and the democratic process will determine a result. > [@](#): > > Why should I pay premiums for bad drivers if I am a good driver? Your premiums are directly affected by how good or bad a driver you are. > [@](#): > > How am I a criminal, if I get shot? > **[Uninsured motorist clause](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninsured_motorist_clause)** > > An uninsured motorist clause is a provision commonly found in United States automobile insurance policies that provides for a driver to receive damages for any injury he or she receives from an uninsured, negligent driver. The owner of the policy pays a premium to the insurance company to include this clause. Although not exclusive, this coverage is typically added to an automobile insurance policy. In the event of a qualifying accident, the insurance company pays the difference between what the ... You sure you know how insurance works? > [@](#): > > [Who is the criminal in this situation?](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/28/police-toddler-shot-2-other-kids-at-michigan-home-day-care.html) Probably the person who owns the home. Not securing a gun when toddlers are around is criminal. But I don’t think anyone has problems with insurance covering something like this. They have problems with the notion that they have to pay premiums to pay for drug dealers killing each other in drive by shootings. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/502 "2017-10-11T02:00:37Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Semi-auto generally fires the several shots in roughly the same direction, right? Three shots or so with one trigger pull, using three bullets, all pointed in the same direction over the mugger’s shoulder? :eek: No. If you can fire more than one shot with a single trigger pull, that is automatic. What you are talking about is frequently referred to as burst fire. > **[Burst mode (weapons)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burst_mode_(weapons))** > > In automatic firearms, burst mode or burst-fire is a firing mode enabling the shooter to fire a predetermined number of rounds, usually two or three rounds on hand held weapons to fifty or more rounds on autocannons, with a single pull of the trigger. This firing mode is commonly used in submachine guns and assault rifles. Other types of firearms, such as machine pistols, including the Heckler & Koch VP70 and Beretta 93R also have a burst mode. > The burst mode is normally employed as an intermedi... Perhaps we should back up and examine what you think you know before we proceed. > [@](#): > > Sadly for granny, semi-auto used up all her bullets before she could get around to actually turning and hitting the second mugger. > > I will readily grant that granny needs a gun that allows multiple shots quickly; that muzzle-loader she inherited from her grandpa won’t cut it in today’s hectic world. And I’ll further grant she needs a gun with a reasonably easy trigger to pull, so she can really get off those single shots fast if she actually gets a bead on her target. But I’m really not seeing where you’re making an argument for semi-auto helping her. Because semi-automatic means that after one round if fired, the action on the gun will load and ready the next round for fire. > **[Semi-automatic firearm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-automatic_firearm)** > > A semi-automatic firearm, also called a self-loading or autoloading firearm (fully automatic and selective fire firearms are also variations on self-loading firearms), is a repeating firearm whose action mechanism automatically loads a following round of cartridge into the chamber and prepares it for subsequent firing, but requires the shooter to manually actuate the trigger in order to discharge each shot. Typically, this involves the weapon's action utilizing the excess energy released during t... Revolvers accomplish much the same objective by rotating the cylinder so that an unfired cartridge is under the pin. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/503 "2017-10-11T02:04:31Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > No, I’m pretty sure I’ve heard that they’d be willing to ban semiautomatics. To be entirely fair, I’m bad enough with names and memory perhaps I got confused and they were actually just dirty stinking liberals instead. > > (I’ve certainly also seen other certainly-conservative people saying they’d be okay with a ban on bump stocks. They’re usually met with the response that granny will respond by making one in her basement.) > > Here I thought some weapons let you just pull back the hammer. Or has that middle been excluded by advances in technology? Remember when Hurricane Ditka said “double action revolver”? Well there is such a thing as a single action revolver. A double action revolver allows you to pull back the hammer and fire the cartridge with one (fairly long heavy) trigger pull. A single action revolver requires you to cock the hammer before you can release the hammer by pulling the trigger to fire the cartridge. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/504 "2017-10-11T02:08:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Your premiums are directly affected by how good or bad a driver you are …and by how good or bad other drivers are. That’s why you need insurance regardless of your driving record. Especially given that most people over-estimate their skill at driving. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/505 "2017-10-11T02:08:55Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I think what you are talking about is a single action revolver here. That means you pull back the hammer and then pull the trigger each time you fire. Mainly, you only see this with older (or replica) firearms today. Most revolvers are double action now. > **[Ruger Blackhawk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_Blackhawk)** > > The Ruger Blackhawk is a six-shot, single-action revolver manufactured by Sturm, Ruger & Co. It is produced in a variety of finishes, calibers, and barrel lengths. > In the early 1950s, Westerns were popular in movies and television. Colt had discontinued the iconic Single Action Army prior to World War II, and few single-action revolvers were available to meet market demand for cowboy-style revolvers. In 1953, the new firm of Sturm, Ruger & Company introduced the Single-Six, a .22 LR rimfire sing... still pretty popular ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/506 "2017-10-11T02:10:46Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > If you can read these stories and still shrug your shoulders and say, well, that’s the price of freedom - you’re a disgusting human being. I have a private bet. When you attempted to take the moral high ground there and assert your obvious moral superiority did you post that with your nose up and righteous fire in your eyes? Just curious. > [@](#): > > The obvious difference between guns and, say, drugs or alcohol, is that in general, I’m probably not going to die from your irresponsible use of said drug or alcohol. Want to bet? I bet you are more likely to be killed in a drunk driving accident than murdered by a gun in the US. We won’t even bother with the odds of you being killed by someone for drug money or killed in a gang shooting over drugs or anything about drugs. Just alcohol. Want to take that bet? As a hint, people are really bad at risk assessment, and you too. > [@](#): > > Smoking regulations got tougher once people that other people are actually at risk from your smoking. True…but more people die of smoking by a large margin than are killed by guns, even if you want to include suicides. More people die of alcohol as well, though alcohol isn’t nearly the killer tobacco is. That said, we could do more about guns if we could simply compromise. Sadly, that doesn’t seem to be in the cards. > [@](#): > > You want guns? Great - then help pay for the costs guns inflict on society. Put your money where your mouth is and help pay for the costs your freedom demands. What’s the cost and what are you proposing? I assume you are aware that there are state and local taxes on guns and ammo already, and I assume you are talking about higher taxes on both. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/507 "2017-10-11T02:19:12Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’d imagine it would work out with a massive increase in production and sale of whichever kind of firearms were still sellable. Yes and no. > [@](#): > > I don’t have the gun knowledge to write this sort of gun law. I’m fairly confident that you could make a weapon that was reasonably immune to being modded for rapidfire without going all the way to handloading each round between shots, though. Double action revolvers fit the bill. Lever action. Pump action. But semi-automatic can usually be converted by someone if they are willing to go to jail for a decade or so. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/508 "2017-10-11T03:24:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I bet you are more likely to be killed in a drunk driving accident than murdered by a gun in the US. I’d bet that’s more likely as well - I don’t have a gun in my house. None of my family members or family friends have guns in their houses. I have well-built home with secure doors, a home security system and a dog. I have no idea what point you’re trying to make. > [@](#): > > What’s the cost and what are you proposing? > I assume you are aware that there are state and local taxes on guns and ammo already, and I assume you are talking about higher taxes on both. I don’t know what the costs would be. Maybe the CDC could research it. Sure, higher taxes on guns and ammo seems like a good start. Maybe exemptions for hunting and sport rifles and such; I’m sure the details could be worked out. Why is that a big deal? I don’t smoke so don’t know the details, but people around me that do or did smoke all say cigarette taxes have gone up a lot. And smoking rates are down. Maybe it’s a coincidence, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/509 "2017-10-11T04:24:25Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > These debates have an element of ‘performance art’ style taken from the ones you see on TV and more formal blogs and written media. On the anti-gun side the most striking feature is the complete unwillingness to acknowledge the practical political importance that such a large portion of the population so totally disagrees with them, passionately so. The example that has to be given is where a country had 10’s% of people who not only owned guns but felt it was a basic violation of their human rights for the govt to take them, but then they were successfully taken, and social harmony followed. That hasn’t ever happened, and it’s not going to. Continually repeating ‘but every other developed country’ is not going to change it. Remember when a comparable minority of US citizens insisted it was a basic violation of their human rights and of divine law to take away their slaves? That didn’t mean that Grant & Sherman were wrong. It didn’t make the liberation of slaves not worth doing. We’re not “performing” so much as arguing. We hope to convince some of you; that you are ready to surrender your weapons when the hammer falls, rather than die with them because Charlton Heston told you to. Of course it will require a civil war to end the kind of anti-social, reckless, individualist firearms culture we now see in the USA. Ironically, parts of that war will likely be fought with firearms. But it will fill fields with the blood of “gun owners,” and then we will have to dismantle the factories that make their rifles, and the institutions that preach their nonsense. It will hurt like hell, and it will be highly ironic.\* That doesn’t mean it isn’t worth doing.\* At some point it’s less about guns in a general sense than about terror. Paddock, Mateen, Lanza, & Holmes were terrorists of a kind, and the NRA is terroristic for insisting that we are not allowed to try to prevent their actions. Do you think Americans might support a war on terror? Have we gone back to running airports the way we used to? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/510 "2017-10-11T04:41:52Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Remember when a comparable minority of US citizens insisted it was a basic violation of their human rights and of divine law to take away their slaves? That didn’t mean that Grant & Sherman were wrong. It didn’t make the liberation of slaves not worth doing. > > We’re not “performing” so much as arguing. We hope to convince some of you; that you are ready to surrender your weapons when the hammer falls, rather than die with them because Charlton Heston told you to. Of course it will require a civil war to end the kind of anti-social, reckless, individualist firearms culture we now see in the USA. Ironically, parts of that war will likely be fought with firearms. But it will fill fields with the blood of “gun owners,” and then we will have to dismantle the factories that make their rifles, and the institutions that preach their nonsense. It will hurt like hell, and it will be highly ironic.\* That doesn’t mean it isn’t worth doing.\* > > At some point it’s less about guns in a general sense than about terror. Paddock, Mateen, Lanza, & Holmes were terrorists of a kind, and the NRA is terroristic for insisting that we are not allowed to try to prevent their actions. Do you think Americans might support a war on terror? Have we gone back to running airports the way we used to? LOL! “when the hammer falls” :dubious: This “hammer” you speak of consists largely of the police / military, correct? Do you imagine that police officers and soldiers fall more generally into the camp of “gun owners” or “non-gun-owners”? Or are you and the latte-sipping brigade going to pick up rifles yourselves to “fill fields with the blood of gun owners”? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/511 "2017-10-11T05:16:07Z")
**foolsguinea** , Try to bear in mind that most of the gun owners, and most of the police, and most of the military are on the same team (Hell, in a lot of cases they are the same person!), and it’s not your team. So don’t go yearning for people to choose up sides and start filling fields with blood. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/512 "2017-10-11T05:40:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > LOL! “when the hammer falls” :dubious: This “hammer” you speak of consists largely of the police / military, correct? No. Framed that way, it’s pretty clear which side many of the police are on, just as it was pretty clear which side the military and government _in Dixie_ were on in 1860. But Sherman and Grant _weren’t from there._ Dixie was crushed _because it was exporting slavery to the rest of the USA._ Maybe the USA will fall when someone with enough power to respond gets sick of us, after too many incidents of the USA exporting its brand of terror and chaos to the rest of the world. Or maybe, in sixty years, some states will invade other states to shut down their firearms factories, and trained soldiers will mow down punks and pukes who know how to shoot a beer can off a fence but nothing of tactics. Does Canada have a military? Does Mexico? And yet they have tighter gun laws than the USA. Not full bans, no. There is no contradiction between having a military and having gun control. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/513 "2017-10-11T05:54:16Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > No. Framed that way, it’s pretty clear which side many of the police are on, just as it was pretty clear which side the military and government _in Dixie_ were on in 1860. But Sherman and Grant _weren’t from there._ Dixie was crushed _because it was exporting slavery to the rest of the USA._ Maybe the USA will fall when someone with enough power to respond gets sick of us, after too many incidents of the USA exporting its brand of terror and chaos to the rest of the world. Or maybe, in sixty years, some states will invade other states to shut down their firearms factories, and trained soldiers will mow down punks and pukes who know how to shoot a beer can off a fence but nothing of tactics. > > Does Canada have a military? Does Mexico? And yet they have tighter gun laws than the USA. Not full bans, no. There is no contradiction between having a military and having gun control. This is even more delusional than I first thought. I’m just trying to wrap my head around what you’re imaging here. Are you picturing something like the California National Guard invading Arizona to shut down the Ruger factory in Prescott? And when you picture this contingent of CA NG, you imagine that the typical Guardsman is someone who is staunchly opposed to the right of the people to keep and bear arms? Someone who would merrily “mow down punks and pukes” over a firearm factory in another state? And the “punks and pukes” you think gun owners are, you don’t think any of them are former or current military? All those guys that are serving in the CA NG and the AZ NG and the active-duty Army, they don’t have privately-owned guns in your worldview? When they get out, nary a one of them joins the “punks and pukes” in building up a gun collection? Or are you saying that your fantasy isn’t a civil war between “gun owners” and non-gun-owners in America, but a foreign invasion by Canada / Mexico / “someone with enough power to respond” (which sure as hell excludes Canada or Mexico) to “the USA exporting its brand of terror and chaos to the rest of the world”? What, specifically, is the USA’s “brand of terror and chaos” in your mind? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/514 "2017-10-11T06:14:58Z")
What I’m saying is that this is the U. S. of A., and constitutional reform of the kind we are proposing has to be accomplished with violence, because violence is the bedrock of our constitutional system. What I’m saying is that such violence is not illegitimate. This fight is not about “guns.” It’s about weapons of mass terror in the hands of random loons. Those who shut down the NRA may be using firearms themselves. It’s not really a contradiction to send armed law enforcement to shut down armed fringe elements. We did it in living memory. Then people felt bad, so we stopped. We can easily start again. But if we don’t do it now, and internally, well, maybe it takes longer. And given the direction of political flow in the USA today, we’re not going to be prosperous enough to be the dominating nation in the world in fifty years’ time. Those who deplore science and education aren’t doing American global hegemony any favors. Someone from the outside is going to have to come in and put down the USA like a rabid dog, after you and I are dead. It’s not that hard to imagine reasons why. We are on the same kind of road to political self-destruction Germany was on a hundred years ago, and we’re bigger pieces of trash already. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/515 "2017-10-11T06:31:23Z")
See, here’s the thing. It sounds like, to you, spree killers like Paddock and Mateen, fringe religious groups preaching race war and Armageddon, shop owners who keep a shotgun behind the counter, hobbyist shooters, all police, and even the military, are unified and on the same team, since they are “gun owners.” Which implies that you have never served either in the police or the military. That’s kind of nuts. Or maybe you think that’s what I, a vocal opponent of the Second Amendment believe. Well, I’m sorry for giving that impression. Maybe I have unfairly conflated people who have guns for some useful purpose with “sportsmen” and gangsters. But in reality, police agencies have been sent to take illegal weapons away from would-be revolutionaries. It was a whole big controversy a generation ago. And police chiefs were known, not very long ago, for being big supporters of gun control. Now you want to pretend the cops are on your side? Well, sure, some are. But you will not be protected by some Brotherhood of All Gunpowder-Stained Hands. Realistically, workable disarmament will have to be slow. It will have to start on the manufacturing end, shrinking supply. It will mean repudiating the NRA and their propaganda line. And I believe in disarmament because I want to reverse this arms race on our streets. I want police to stop shooting dumb kids for doing dumb kid things, speaking as a onetime dumb kid. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/516 "2017-10-11T08:21:36Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Those who shut down the NRA may be using firearms themselves. It’s not really a contradiction to send armed law enforcement to shut down armed fringe elements. We did it in living memory. Then people felt bad, so we stopped. We can easily start again. Who are “those” going to be? And how are they going to “shut down the NRA”? You imagine some police chief or governor is going to order the cops under his control to … what exactly? Raid the NRA annual meeting and arrest everyone present? For what? Being NRA members? You think the cops are likely to comply with this command? > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Someone from the outside is going to have to come in and put down the USA like a rabid dog, after you and I are dead. I suppose they can _try_. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > See, here’s the thing. > > It sounds like, to you, spree killers like Paddock and Mateen, fringe religious groups preaching race war and Armageddon, shop owners who keep a shotgun behind the counter, hobbyist shooters, all police, and even the military, are unified and on the same team, since they are “gun owners.” Not at all. I used the word “most” repeatedly, and never used the word “all”. And I don’t think Paddock is on anyone’s team. He was just nuts. Here’s a crazy statistic for you: roughly 1/3 of gun owners voted for HRC. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > But in reality, police agencies have been sent to take illegal weapons away from would-be revolutionaries. It was a whole big controversy a generation ago. And police chiefs were known, not very long ago, for being big supporters of gun control. The key word here would seem to be “illegal”. Most guns are possessed legally. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Now you want to pretend the cops are on your side? Well, sure, some are. But you will not be protected by some Brotherhood of All Gunpowder-Stained Hands. I’m protected by the law. And if, like in your fantasies, that ceases to be the order of business, I’m not terribly concerned about what the tree-huggers in CA or the pajama boys in NY are going to do if things devolve to jungle rules. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Realistically, workable disarmament will have to be slow. It will have to start on the manufacturing end, shrinking supply. It will mean repudiating the NRA and their propaganda line. There are maybe a half a billion guns in civilian hands in America today. We’ve got more guns than people. What makes you think that “shrinking supply” by “start[ing] on the manufacturing end” is going to have a noticeable effect in any realistic timeline? And how do you plan to “start on the manufacturing end” when it’s perfectly legal to produce and sell firearms? Are you going to make it illegal? Good luck with that. In the 50+ years that Gallup has been asking the question “Do you think there should or should not be a law that would ban the possession of handguns, except by the police and other authorized persons?” the gun ban side has _shrunk_ from 60% down to 23%. And in the 20 years they’ve been asking “Are you for or against a law which would make it illegal to manufacture, sell or possess semi-automatic guns known as assault rifles?” the “for” side has _shrunk_ from 57% to 36%. ([cite](http://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx)) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/517 "2017-10-11T12:50:51Z")
The argument that we’re a democratic society that can change the laws we want at anytime is a compelling one on the surface. However, the reality is that well-organized lobbying interests, gerrymandering, and plain old dirty politics can be road blocks in the system. In theory, yes, if the people decide that gun restrictions are so important that they should have happened yesterday, then we can just vote the bums out. In reality, people’s attention spans are divided among any number of political issues, and we’ve become conditioned to violence in our society. The fact that we don’t vote people out of office on the basis of a single issue alone doesn’t invalidate arguments for more restrictions against firearms. Rather, it’s a sign that our political process doesn’t respond to the interests of people. So we will in all probability continue to just gradually accept that one man having a midlife crisis can kill 50, 60, 75, or more people and injure 500 to 1000 more and there’s just not much that can be done about it. Again, other societies who are probably a little more advanced in thought than ours figured out a while ago that this is not necessarily true. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/518 "2017-10-11T13:31:51Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > … So we will in all probability continue to just gradually accept that one man having a midlife crisis can kill 50, 60, 75, or more people and injure 500 to 1000 more and there’s just not much that can be done about it. Again, other societies who are probably a little more advanced in thought than ours figured out a while ago that this is not necessarily true. Would you consider Norway one of those “societies who are probably a little more advanced in thought than ours”? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/519 "2017-10-11T15:36:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Would you consider Norway one of those “societies who are probably a little more advanced in thought than ours”? Remind me again how many gun massacres Norway had in the 10 years before Breivik and how many in the subsequent six years? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/520 "2017-10-11T16:01:19Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I have a private bet. When you attempted to take the moral high ground there and assert your obvious moral superiority did you post that with your nose up and righteous fire in your eyes? Just curious. > > Want to bet? I bet you are more likely to be killed in a drunk driving accident than murdered by a gun in the US. We won’t even bother with the odds of you being killed by someone for drug money or killed in a gang shooting over drugs or anything about drugs. Just alcohol. Want to take that bet? > > As a hint, people are really bad at risk assessment, and you too. > > True…but more people die of smoking by a large margin than are killed by guns, even if you want to include suicides. More people die of alcohol as well, though alcohol isn’t nearly the killer tobacco is. > > That said, we could do more about guns if we could simply compromise. Sadly, that doesn’t seem to be in the cards. > > What’s the cost and what are you proposing? I assume you are aware that there are state and local taxes on guns and ammo already, and I assume you are talking about higher taxes on both. Why is it that a homeowner must be more scared of the liability from his swimming pool than that of his firearms? How about steeper and steeper insurance coverages and fees with each gun you want to add to your collection? You can’t defend yourself with 3 guns at a time, much less 44. When I get a speeding ticket in some communities there is a “head injury surcharge” in addition to the $10 per mph figure. You can attach a surcharge to gun violations. it isn’t any more onerous or a stretch to do it with guns. I have a question for the gun fans. Do you have two guns in your bedroom, in case an intruder gets ahold of one, and you are going to need to duel or standoff with him to protect yourself? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873.md?page=27)