# Gun control wouldn't have stopped what happened in Vegas...should we do it anyway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873 "2017-10-03T15:32:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/541 "2017-10-11T22:47:56Z")
Why would homeowner’s insurance pay anything if someone is shot in your house? Maybe I’m missing something, but I can’t see why that would be covered under a homeowner’s policy. Does my insurance pay anything if I get into a fistfight with someone in my house and break their nose? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/542 "2017-10-11T23:00:04Z")
> [@XT](#): > > That’s a value judgment again. Is there a social benefit to someone owning 50 bottles of wine…or 500…or 5000? Is there a social benefit to someone such as myself owning, say, 20 boxes of fine cigars and maybe 20-30 bottles of high-end tequila along with a similar number of single malt scotch? No idea. There is no value to you, perhaps, if you don’t like cigars, tequila or scotch I suppose. > > Who are ‘these people’? Seems like a very small number of nuts, especially if they are listening to Alex Jones. 😛 > > No, I would probably hit you over the head with an empty tequila bottle…no need to waste the good stuff. Not because society might decide that but just because you seem bound and determined to strawman me by asking me stupid questions about shooting ‘us’ as well as assuming you know the answers I’m going to say or what my stance is on, well, anything. > > To answer your non-question, society might decide that down the road ordinary citizens shouldn’t be allowed guns, or should be allowed some arbitrary number only, or be allowed only black powder guns or only single shot guns, or be allowed only paint guns or whatever. Myself, I’d fight against it (in the political and protest sense, not actually hitting you on the head with a tequila bottle), but if the majority of my fellow citizens decided that’s what they want then, well, that’s what democracy is about. I think when you get around to the “guns are the same as all other consumer goods” you lost anyone that doesn’t already agree with you. For the ammo people when they need to to argue a point, will say that guns are just regular aw shucks americana the same as coca cola and all the rest. But it has been also argued that gun ownership is a special natural right, (for special people, Americans) or that it is more specifically an American freedom to own one than any other object, tool or item. No one here has even begun to make a case for why that ought to be. You are trying to have it both ways, rhetorically. Is it a special case? Is it just an item that people need to be more casual about? Liquor, cars, cigars, stampeding elephants, it’s all dangerous out there and guns are like everything else? Common sense tells me that anyone with more than 20 guns ought to be watched closely. I don’t know what the other items you listed have to do as an analog with it. Straw products? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/543 "2017-10-11T23:01:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why would homeowner’s insurance pay anything if someone is shot in your house? I don’t know - but my homeowner insurance is more expensive with a pool compared to a home without a pool. Why would homeowner’s insurance pay anything if someone got hurt in my pool? Are you saying you _wouldn’t_ be liable if you accidentally shot someone in your house? Heck - you can be liable for someone getting hurt in your pool even if they were trespassing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/544 "2017-10-11T23:13:33Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I don’t know - but my homeowner insurance is more expensive with a pool compared to a home without a pool. Why would homeowner’s insurance pay anything if someone got hurt in my pool? Are you saying you _wouldn’t_ be liable if you accidentally shot someone in your house? Heck - you can be liable for someone getting hurt in your pool even if they were trespassing. Because the pool is part of your home. It’s intrinsic to your property. If you run over someone in your driveway with your car, would you expect your homeowner’s policy to cover that? If someone got salmonella from eating a chicken dinner at your house, would you expect your homeowner’s policy to cover that? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/545 "2017-10-11T23:23:37Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Well - that’s my point. Is having a pool more dangerous than having a gun in the house? The available evidence seems to suggest that having a gun in the house increases the risk of any person in the home dying from a homicide compared to homes without guns. Yet as I noted, I don’t recall ever being asked if I owned a gun in the home, either for my home insurance or life insurance. For my home insurance, I was asked about home security systems. If insurance companies aren’t acting in a way consistent with your understanding, perhaps it calls into question your understanding, or there are other factors at play. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Because, as a gun owner, and a contributor to gun culture, and a defender of the people’s right to have unfettered access to guns, you are n part responsible for incidents like this occurring. > > Why should I, as a non-gun owner, have to pay when one of your gun owning colleagues harms me or mine? I get no benefit out of having guns in my environment, I only get the liability. Why do you refuse to share in the liability that you create? > > There are externalities to your actions that are being paid for by society, and you are just looking to be a free rider. No. Gun owners in general are not responsible for the actions of others committing crimes. The gun store that sold Paddock the rifles are not responsible either. The only one responsible for Paddock’s actions, is Paddock himself. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why would homeowner’s insurance pay anything if someone is shot in your house? Maybe I’m missing something, but I can’t see why that would be covered under a homeowner’s policy. Does my insurance pay anything if I get into a fistfight with someone in my house and break their nose? General liability coverage under HO-3 coverage could come into play if someone is shot accidentally, depending on the circumstances. A fistfight is different in that it’s typically intentional. Depending on the jurisdiction, or the language of the policy exclusion for intentional acts, then reasonable force in a lawful manner may be covered, or not. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/546 "2017-10-11T23:27:59Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I don’t know - but my homeowner insurance is more expensive with a pool compared to a home without a pool. Why would homeowner’s insurance pay anything if someone got hurt in my pool? Are you saying you _wouldn’t_ be liable if you accidentally shot someone in your house? **Heck - you can be liable for someone getting hurt in your pool even if they were trespassing.** You seem to be equating liability with what is covered under home owners insurance - they are not the same thing. Typical HO-3 coverage will cover all perils, with some exclusions. If an excluded act happens, that doesn’t mean liability could not accrue. Regarding trespass and pools, you stated this in a different form earlier here: > [@DragonAsh](#): > > And even though statistically speaking it’s an incredibly safe activity, many states still have strict liability laws that means the home owner can be liable for people injured in the home pool…even if the person was trespassing at the time. I don’t think this is true. Do you have a cite? My understanding is that liability for injury from pool or any other property would not accrue if the person was trespassing, barring some other kind of negligence, attractive nuisance, etc. Far from strict liability. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/547 "2017-10-11T23:51:38Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Well - that’s my point. Is having a pool more dangerous than having a gun in the house? The available evidence seems to suggest that having a gun in the house increases the risk of any person in the home dying from a homicide compared to homes without guns. Yet as I noted, I don’t recall ever being asked if I owned a gun in the home, either for my home insurance or life insurance. For my home insurance, I was asked about home security systems. Um, no. Did you read the first cite? Or bother to look up the data? The ‘available evidence’ is pretty clear that having a pool is more dangerous that having a gun accident in your home. It’s only if you are tossing in suicides that you can make this statement. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > America clearly incurs costs to maintain its gun culture - both in terms of horrific body counts (killed and injured) plus additional healthcare costs and such - but it seems (to some of us at least) that gun owners do not pay their share to cover any of these costs. > Other than, you know, being far more likely to have you or one of your family members be killed by one of those guns. As I’ve pointed out, American’s (and every other country in the world) incur ‘horrific body counts’ for a LOT of things, killed and injured…plus the additional healthcare costs. By allowing alcohol we incur a much larger body count. Tobacco even more so. Hell, cheeseburgers, fries and an extra trough sized coke have body counts associated with them. We accept the fact that by allowing those things people are going to die. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > I think when you get around to the “guns are the same as all other consumer goods” you lost anyone that doesn’t already agree with you. Only those who don’t have any logic abilities. I mean, to you, what’s the difference between guns and alcohol from the perspective of society? Guns and tobacco? Feel free to be verbose here. Just saying that no one agrees with me doesn’t really cut it. > [@](#): > > For the ammo people when they need to to argue a point, will say that guns are just regular aw shucks americana the same as coca cola and all the rest. Kind of a strawman. So, you gots nuffin’ then but strawmen? Feel free to address the actual argument and the stuff I posted instead of the strawman in your head. Or don’t…I’m pretty sure that folks can scroll up. > [@](#): > > But it has been also argued that gun ownership is a special natural right, (for special people, Americans) or that it is more specifically an American freedom to own one than any other object, tool or item. No one here has even begun to make a case for why that ought to be. Um…well, it kind of is. AFAIK, no other nation has something like the 2nd Amendment. Did you want to suspend reality with this line of post here? Why it ‘ought to be’ is, well, because it’s in the freaking Constitution and hasn’t been repealed yet. And it’s been in there for, you know, over 200 years now, so not like you should have missed any of this. Seriously, WTF? If you want to argue that we shouldn’t have it, that’s fine. We can argue that. But you seem to want to argue that the world is the one in your fantasy headspace. > [@](#): > > You are trying to have it both ways, rhetorically. Is it a special case? Is it just an item that people need to be more casual about? Liquor, cars, cigars, stampeding elephants, it’s all dangerous out there and guns are like everything else? No, I’m pointing out that societies often make decisions that cost real lives in the real world…and pointing out several that cost more lives than guns. That’s the point you seem to be missing. Your attempt to strawman the argument is, well, kind of silly, though I’m frankly wondering if that’s what you are doing now. Perhaps you are having a different conversation with a different XT in your head and keep getting us mixed up. In your fantasy headspace the world seems to operate differently, probability in that world seems to equate elephants (which must be fucking dangerous in drat dog world! :eek:) with tobacco and alcohol as well as guns, cars, cigars and all sorts of other things. I’m glad I don’t live in that world! > [@](#): > > Common sense tells me that anyone with more than 20 guns ought to be watched closely. I don’t know what the other items you listed have to do as an analog with it. Straw products? There are probably 100’s of thousands if not millions of owners that have 20 guns…you seriously suggesting you are going to watch them all? And why 20? Why not 19? Or 25? Or some other arbitrary number you pulled out of your ass? I know probability doesn’t work the same in your fantasy world, but come on…just from a cost to benefits perspective you have to see that this is not ‘common sense’. I mean, how many murders do you think happen each year from gun owners that have 20 guns or more? Do you even know? I mean, I know that you’ve heard of Vegas that happened in this world if not your own, but other than that what are we talking about here? At any rate, go back to talking to that other XT. I think this one is done with you…again. I mean, I tried, really I did… ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/548 "2017-10-12T01:06:58Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Um, no. Did you read the first cite? Or bother to look up the data? The ‘available evidence’ is pretty clear that having a pool is more dangerous that having a gun accident in your home. It’s only if you are tossing in suicides that you can make this statement. > > As I’ve pointed out, American’s (and every other country in the world) incur ‘horrific body counts’ for a LOT of things, killed and injured…plus the additional healthcare costs. By allowing alcohol we incur a much larger body count. Tobacco even more so. Hell, cheeseburgers, fries and an extra trough sized coke have body counts associated with them. We accept the fact that by allowing those things people are going to die. > > Only those who don’t have any logic abilities. I mean, to you, what’s the difference between guns and alcohol from the perspective of society? Guns and tobacco? Feel free to be verbose here. Just saying that no one agrees with me doesn’t really cut it. > > Kind of a strawman. So, you gots nuffin’ then but strawmen? Feel free to address the actual argument and the stuff I posted instead of the strawman in your head. Or don’t…I’m pretty sure that folks can scroll up. > > Um…well, it kind of is. AFAIK, no other nation has something like the 2nd Amendment. Did you want to suspend reality with this line of post here? Why it ‘ought to be’ is, well, because it’s in the freaking Constitution and hasn’t been repealed yet. And it’s been in there for, you know, over 200 years now, so not like you should have missed any of this. > > Seriously, WTF? If you want to argue that we shouldn’t have it, that’s fine. We can argue that. But you seem to want to argue that the world is the one in your fantasy headspace. > > No, I’m pointing out that societies often make decisions that cost real lives in the real world…and pointing out several that cost more lives than guns. That’s the point you seem to be missing. Your attempt to strawman the argument is, well, kind of silly, though I’m frankly wondering if that’s what you are doing now. Perhaps you are having a different conversation with a different XT in your head and keep getting us mixed up. In your fantasy headspace the world seems to operate differently, probability in that world seems to equate elephants (which must be fucking dangerous in drat dog world! :eek:) with tobacco and alcohol as well as guns, cars, cigars and all sorts of other things. I’m glad I don’t live in that world! > > There are probably 100’s of thousands if not millions of owners that have 20 guns…you seriously suggesting you are going to watch them all? And why 20? Why not 19? Or 25? Or some other arbitrary number you pulled out of your ass? > > I know probability doesn’t work the same in your fantasy world, but come on…just from a cost to benefits perspective you have to see that this is not ‘common sense’. I mean, how many murders do you think happen each year from gun owners that have 20 guns or more? Do you even know? I mean, I know that you’ve heard of Vegas that happened in this world if not your own, but other than that what are we talking about here? > > At any rate, go back to talking to that other XT. I think this one is done with you…again. I mean, I tried, really I did… I don’t know how many crimes are committed by gun hoarders. I’d like to find out though. Gun ownership isn’t a natural right in the world outside of society. We are granting you that privilege. It isn’t from God. How could it be revoked if it were? OK now are we back on earth? As far as the number you ought to have, cool your jets dude. I guess nobody ever made a law delimiting the number or value of something? Can’t think of any examples in history? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/549 "2017-10-12T01:28:29Z")
> [@XT](#): > > From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States — about ten deaths per day.1 An additional 332 people died each year from drowning in boating-related incidents.2 > About one in five people who die from drowning are children 14 and younger.1 For every child who dies from drowning, another five receive emergency department care for nonfatal submersion injuries.1 > More than 50% of drowning victims treated in emergency departments (EDs) require hospitalization or transfer for further care (compared with a hospitalization rate of about 6% for all unintentional injuries).1,2 These nonfatal drowning injuries can cause severe brain damage that may result in long-term disabilities such as memory problems, learning disabilities, and permanent loss of basic functioning (e.g., permanent vegetative state).3,4. “pool” is not mentioned there even once. Just saying. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/550 "2017-10-12T02:11:55Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > “pool” is not mentioned there even once. Just saying. No, I guess it wasn’t in that one (the first link was about pools verse firearm accidents). How about [this](http://snicc.org/files/uploads/Facts_about_Swimming_Pool_Drowning_Accidents.pdf) one (warning, PDF)? > [@](#): > > Facts about Swimming Pool Drowning Accidents: > The National Safety Council reports: The National Safety Council reports: The National Safety Council reports: The National Safety Council reports: > > o There are over There are over There are over There are over 7,000 drowning deaths nationally each year. Drowning accidents are the 7,000 drowning deaths nationally each year. Drowning accidents are the 7,000 drowning deaths nationally each year. Drowning accidents are the 7,000 drowning deaths nationally each year. Drowning accidents are the leading cause of death and injury of children under 5 years of age. leading cause of death and injury of children under 5 years of age. leading cause of death and injury of children under 5 years of age. leading cause of death and injury of children under 5 years of age. > > o Drowning is t Drowning is t Drowning is t Drowning is the second leading cause of injury he second leading cause of injury he second leading cause of injury he second leading cause of injury–related death among children under the related death among children under the related death among children under the related death among children under the age of 15. (U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) age of 15. (U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) age of 15. (U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) age of 15. (U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) > > o More than 80% of the drownings occur in residential pools or spas More than 80% of the drownings occur in residential pools or spas More than 80% of the drownings occur in residential pools or spas More than 80% of the drownings occur in residential pools or spas. > > o E EE Each year 5000 children under the age of 14 are hosp ach year 5000 children under the age of 14 are hosp ach year 5000 children under the age of 14 are hosp ach year 5000 children under the age of 14 are hospitalized for near drowning events. italized for near drowning events. italized for near drowning events. italized for near drowning events. Of these, as man Of these, as man Of these, as man Of these, as many yy y as of 20% suffer severe and permanent disabilities. as of 20% suffer severe and permanent disabilities. as of 20% suffer severe and permanent disabilities. as of 20% suffer severe and permanent disabilities. > > o Healthcare costs for each near drowning event range from $75,000 for emergency room Healthcare costs for each near drowning event range from $75,000 for emergency room Healthcare costs for each near drowning event range from $75,000 for emergency room Healthcare costs for each near drowning event range from $75,000 for emergency room services to $180,000 per year for long term care. services to $180,000 per year for long term care. services to $180,000 per year for long term care. services to $180,000 per year for long term care. > > o More than 90% o More than 90% o More than 90% o More than 90% of parents who lose a child to drowning end up divorcing f parents who lose a child to drowning end up divorcing f parents who lose a child to drowning end up divorcing f parents who lose a child to drowning end up divorcing. Prevention is Prevention is Prevention is Prevention is the key for protecting our children, grandchildren and families from the risks of drowning. the key for protecting our children, grandchildren and families from the risks of drowning. the key for protecting our children, grandchildren and families from the risks of drowning. the key for protecting our children, grandchildren and families from the risks of drowning. > > o Nationwide, about 250 children under the age of 5 drown each year Nationwide, about 250 children under the age of 5 drown each year Nationwide, about 250 children under the age of 5 drown each year Nationwide, about 250 children under the age of 5 drown each year. Most of those Most of those Most of those Most of those incidents o incidents o incidents o incidents occur in backyard pools and studies have shown that usually an adult was ccur in backyard pools and studies have shown that usually an adult was ccur in backyard pools and studies have shown that usually an adult was ccur in backyard pools and studies have shown that usually an adult was nearby, but not watching the child when they fell in the pool. nearby, but not watching the child when they fell in the pool. nearby, but not watching the child when they fell in the pool. nearby, but not watching the child when they fell in the pool. > > o Drowning is the 4th leading cause of accidental death in the United States Drowning is the 4th leading cause of accidental death in the United States Drowning is the 4th leading cause of accidental death in the United States Drowning is the 4th leading cause of accidental death in the United States, claiming , claiming , claiming , claiming 4,000 lives annually. 4,000 lives annually. 4,000 lives annually. 4,000 lives annually. Approximately Approximately Approximately Approximately one one one one–third is children under the age of 14 third is children under the age of 14 third is children under the age of 14 third is children under the age of 14. ( (( (American American American American Institute for Preventive Medicine Institute for Preventive Medicine Institute for Preventive Medicine Institute for Preventive Medicine) )) ) > > o A child can drown in the time it takes to answer a phone A child can drown in the time it takes to answer a phone A child can drown in the time it takes to answer a phone A child can drown in the time it takes to answer a phone. (U.S. Consumer Product Safety (U.S. Consumer Product Safety (U.S. Consumer Product Safety (U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission) Commission) Commission) Commission) > > o A swimming pool is 14 times more likely than a motor vehicle to b A swimming pool is 14 times more likely than a motor vehicle to b A swimming pool is 14 times more likely than a motor vehicle to b A swimming pool is 14 times more likely than a motor vehicle to be involved in the death e involved in the death e involved in the death e involved in the death of a child age 4 and under of a child age 4 and under of a child age 4 and under of a child age 4 and under. (Orange County California Fire Authority) . (Orange County California Fire Authority) . (Orange County California Fire Authority) . (Orange County California Fire Authority) > > o For every child who drowns, four are hospitalized for near drowning For every child who drowns, four are hospitalized for near drowning For every child who drowns, four are hospitalized for near drowning For every child who drowns, four are hospitalized for near drowning. (American Academy (American Academy (American Academy (American Academy of Pediatrics) of Pediatrics) of Pediatrics) of Pediatrics) Basically, whether it’s 4000 or 7000, more people drown each year than are killed in firearm accidents, no matter how you slice it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/551 "2017-10-12T02:17:52Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I don’t know how many crimes are committed by gun hoarders. I’d like to find out though. Don’t you think you should try and find out before you make some ridiculous and arbitrary statements or assertions? Just a thought. > [@](#): > > Gun ownership isn’t a natural right in the world outside of society. We are granting you that privilege. It isn’t from God. How could it be revoked if it were? OK now are we back on earth? I don’t live ‘in the world outside of society’, by which I figure you mean in a country that isn’t the US. I live here. Who said anything about God? Well, you did in your strawman. You seem to do that a lot. How could it be revoked? Oh, I don’t know…by the process we have that has overturned Amendments in the past? Have you ever thought about, I don’t know, reading a history book (or a basic civics book) while you read up on the other stuff you don’t know anything about? I’ll give you a small hint though…no magic gods are required. NOW we are back on Earth. > [@](#): > > As far as the number you ought to have, cool your jets dude. I guess nobody ever made a law delimiting the number or value of something? Can’t think of any examples in history? You basically pulled a number out of your ass. Look up what ‘arbitrary’ means while you are doing that other research then get back to me. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/552 "2017-10-12T06:23:29Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Common sense tells me that anyone with more than 20 guns ought to be watched closely. There are way too many people with more than 20 guns to watch them all closely. What you call common sense looks quite silly to me. ---
**Author:** ![TheOtherHalfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5daacb/32.png) [@TheOtherHalfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheOtherHalfian)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/553 "2017-10-12T13:06:13Z")
IMHO gun control is uesless, but random home raids are of good use. If used properly. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/554 "2017-10-12T13:11:11Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Basically, whether it’s 4000 or 7000, more people drown each year than are killed in firearm accidents, no matter how you slice it. Which do you think is the more common activity: people swimming (be it in a pool, lake, ocean or a bigly bathtub) or people using guns? For all those responsible gun owners that say they have guns for ‘protection’ at home, how often do you think they use their guns? Which do you think is bigger - the population of swimmers or the population of gun users? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/555 "2017-10-12T13:39:10Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Which do you think is the more common activity: people swimming (be it in a pool, lake, ocean or a bigly bathtub) or people using guns? The cites I linked too were only about residential pools…they weren’t talking about that other stuff. If we include oceans, lakes and the like in the body count would go up. They were also just talking about in the US, not worldwide. Worldwide over a million people die from drowning each year. So, keeping that in mind, which do I think is more common in the US, shooting or swimming in residential pools? I’d say shooting, but I don’t have any hard numbers on that…it’s just my WAG. I know people with pools who hardly use them, and most people who live in my neighborhood don’t have a pool (it’s not as viable in New Mexico as it is in Arizona to have one, nor does it seem as fashionable for some reason). Plus you have the fact that a lot of people in the US don’t have a single family style suburban home that could have a pool. On the other side, I know people who have pools and use them all the time, and places where just about every house has one. The same can be said for guns…I know people who have a lot of guns but hardly take them out except to clean occasionally, and I know people who use them constantly…and over 50% of households in the US report they have no gun at all. There are certainly more guns than there are pools and more families with a gun in the house than with pools in their home (IIRC, there are only 10 million residential swimming pools in the US, so that’s a fairly small percentage of all the homes in the US, let alone all the living places like apartments, condos and the like). If you have hard data though I’m certainly willing to look at it. Whether something is used constantly or used very occasionally, however, it has a base threat probability. I mean, people die a lot putting up Christmas decorations, enough that it’s on the list of things that can kill you in your home (interestingly, lately it’s big screen TVs falling on people :eek:), even though they really do that only twice a year…once to put them up and once to take them down. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/556 "2017-10-12T13:49:27Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Which do you think is the more common activity: people swimming (be it in a pool, lake, ocean or a bigly bathtub) or people using guns? According to [this](https://www.statista.com/statistics/227430/number-of-swimmers-usa/), about 86 million people swam recreationally in 2017. I am not sure if you mean using guns or owning guns, so feel free to do your own search. > [@](#): > > For all those responsible gun owners that say they have guns for ‘protection’ at home, how often do you think they use their guns? Much more difficult to establish - studies r[ang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use)e from 55,000 DGU per year up to 2.1 million. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/557 "2017-10-12T14:19:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > According to [this](https://www.statista.com/statistics/227430/number-of-swimmers-usa/), about 86 million people swam recreationally in 2017. But that’s only the number of people that went swimming within the last year, it doesn’t tell us \*how many times \*those people may have gone swimming over the year. I’m not really a swimmer at all, because too many well-meaning people keep trying to drag me back out to sea, but even I was swimming a dozen times or so with my kids in the past year. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/558 "2017-10-12T14:38:19Z")
Plus it doesn’t take into account the health effects of swimming. Whereas using a gun is a pretty sedentary activity aside from however many gun deaths were actively walking hunters who would not have otherwise been hiking. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/559 "2017-10-12T15:14:54Z")
I’ve seen data suggesting around 100 people die each year in hunting accidents. I have no idea if that is a lot or not compared to the hunting population & frequency etc. > [@](#): > > So, keeping that in mind, which do I think is more common in the US, shooting or swimming in residential pools? > I’d say shooting, but I don’t have any hard numbers on that…it’s just my WAG. I think it’s swimming, and I don’t think it’s even remotely close. I shudder to think of where you live if you think, based on your experience, that shooting guns is more common than swimming. Estimates suggest there are 270 million guns in the US. However, gun ownership is declining, with the latest number I’ve seen at 32%. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/560 "2017-10-12T15:26:27Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I shudder to think of where you live if you think, based on your experience, that shooting guns is more common than swimming. But, see, you keep moving the goal posts. I didn’t say that shooting guns is more common that swimming…I said that shooting guns would be more common than swimming in residential pools. Those are two different things. But, just looking at the numbers it seems plausible to me. There are over 100 million gun owners in the US and over 400 million guns. I don’t know what the percentage of those who shoot or what the frequency is…you probably don’t either. By the same token, there are 10 million residential pools in the US. Again, I don’t know what the number or frequency of people swimming in those pools is, and, again, I’m guessing neither do you. > [@](#): > > Estimates suggest there are 270 million guns in the US. No estimate I’ve seen suggest so few guns in the US. Where are you getting this? > [@](#): > > However, gun ownership is declining, with the latest number I’ve seen at 32%. The latest Gallup poll puts it at 43%. Even at 32% you are talking over 100 million people though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873.md?page=29)