# Gun control wouldn't have stopped what happened in Vegas...should we do it anyway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873 "2017-10-03T15:32:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/561 "2017-10-12T15:37:05Z")
Correction…the latest Gallup poll puts it at 43% of households. Your 32% is pretty close the latest poll (34%) of individuals saying they have a gun. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/562 "2017-10-12T15:41:03Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Correction…the latest Gallup poll puts it at 43% of households. Your 32% is pretty close the latest poll (34%) of individuals saying they have a gun. The [latest poll](http://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx) I see says 39%. I’ll be back, need to run some errands. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/563 "2017-10-12T15:42:39Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Gun ownership isn’t a natural right in the world outside of society. We are granting you that privilege. It isn’t from God. How could it be revoked if it were? OK now are we back on earth? Do you feel the same way about freedom of speech? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/564 "2017-10-12T16:27:45Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Do you feel the same way about freedom of speech? No ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/565 "2017-10-12T16:38:35Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Don’t you think you should try and find out before you make some ridiculous and arbitrary statements or assertions? Just a thought. > > I don’t live ‘in the world outside of society’, by which I figure you mean in a country that isn’t the US. I live here. > > Who said anything about God? Well, you did in your strawman. You seem to do that a lot. How could it be revoked? Oh, I don’t know…by the process we have that has overturned Amendments in the past? Have you ever thought about, I don’t know, reading a history book (or a basic civics book) while you read up on the other stuff you don’t know anything about? I’ll give you a small hint though…no magic gods are required. > > NOW we are back on Earth. > > You basically pulled a number out of your ass. Look up what ‘arbitrary’ means while you are doing that other research then get back to me. Guess I hit a nerve with you? This is what arbitrary means : “adjective 1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one’s discretion: an arbitrary decision.” You are an anonymous internet poster. Do you think that your opinions are not pulled out of your own ass? Get off your horse. I don’t care to try to find out how many gun owners are “hoarders” I’ll let you go to town. Here is an arbitrary number: You want a second gun you pay $100,000 “shooter surcharge” and if you want a third it’s $200,000. And so on. I think the thing to do is get the gun owners on the grid. How many, what you need them for etc. It’s coming, so I don’t want you to be too traumatized. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/566 "2017-10-12T17:08:39Z")
Question for pro-gun folks: Do you have a problem with the government knowing what guns you have? Imagine a system akin to car registration. Might as well include question two: Thought on gun use licenses? Again, akin to driver’s licenses. (Ignore for the moment that these might be unconstitutional.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/567 "2017-10-12T17:11:56Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Question for pro-gun folks: Do you have a problem with the government knowing what guns you have? Imagine a system akin to car registration. > > Might as well include question two: Thought on gun use licenses? Again, akin to driver’s licenses. (Ignore for the moment that these might be unconstitutional.) What use would it be? of course that list could be hacked, right? For carrying, sure. For hunting, of course. For just owning? No. You dont need a license to just own a car. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/568 "2017-10-12T17:26:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Ah, the age old argument. “You don’t know enough about guns to be allowed to have a position on them.” Not always the case but in begbert’s case yes. Begbert made several conclusory statements with apparent confidence while admitting that he had no fucking clue whether the assumption underlying his conclusions had any connection with reality. It would be like a Republican saying that you don’t need abortions in the case of rape because you can’t get pregnant when you’re raped. At some point you display a level of ignorance that precludes you from throwing shade on the conclusions of others. So when Begbert implies that he thinks that a statement made by someone on the pro-gun side is full of shit because it doesn’t pass his smell test then I can come along and say that his smell test is fucking meaningless because he is to ignorant to have a smell test. > [@](#): > > If I came and took all your guns, who would get them back for you? You mean stole my guns or confiscated my guns under color of law? If you stole my guns, the cops. If you legally confiscated my guns, then no one. So if you want to take my guns and keep them, then you need to change the law and that will need to start with the constitution. You can either get two thirds of each chamber (and good luck getting 2/3rds of either chamber of congress to agree to confiscate my guns) and 3/4ths of the states (I doubt you could get 50% never mind 75%) or you can call for a constitutional convention which AFAICT is something the conservatives are chomping at the bit for. > [@](#): > > Really? I’ve never been in an accident, haven’t had a ticket in well over a decade, yet, when I changed my primary residence, that changed my premiums, when I change my place of work, that changes my premiums, when I change the number of people in my household, that changes my premiums. And your insurance would be even higher if you had been in an accident every year. > [@](#): > > Your comment reflects a profound ignorance on how insurance works and is tabulated actuarially. Really? What do you think you know about insurance? > [@](#): > > Quite sure. Not sure what your wiki link is supposed to reference there. The only thing I can think of is that you are saying I need to go out and get uninsured firearm owner insurance, to cover me in case someone shoots me who cannot pay for my treatment? > > If there even is such a thing, why should I have to get insurance to cover liability created by the actions of other people? Why do I need to go out and get coverage in case an uninsured motorist hits me? Most people have health insurance that covers them if they get shot by someone else. > [@](#): > > And they also have problems paying for innocent bystanders of those drive bys. Yes because you are trying to impose the cost of criminal behavior on law abiding citizens. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/569 "2017-10-12T17:32:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What use would it be? This is actually a pretty legit question. In my view, registering your [del]mutant powers[/del] guns demonstrates to observers that you’re not hoarding them for some nefarious purpose, and that you’re not afraid to be accountable for them. It would also be a necessary step in tracking the origin of weapons used by criminals. It probably _wouldn’t_ be the first step in a massive seizure campaign, because that would be overtly unconstitutional. Though you might end up on a watchlist or two - I mean, presumably you aren’t already on one for the horrible contents of your twitter account. > [@DrDeth](#): > > of course that list could be hacked, right? Sure - just like a gun use license database would be, and just like your registrations on your fancy expensive cars are. > [@DrDeth](#): > > For carrying, sure. For hunting, of course. For just owning? No. > > You dont need a license to just own a car. For shooting on private property no, but for taking to gun ranges and shooting them there, yes? And we do track titles on cars, so owning the title is something of a ‘license to own’, in a sense. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/570 "2017-10-12T17:33:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Actually, no…I don’t know you are right. You make a personal value judgment then you expect everyone else to make the same call. This is exactly the same logic used by the prohibitionists…they said that alcohol is an unnecessary evil. The US shouldn’t allow it because it causes a lot of death, breaks up families and hurts women. It’s common sense. The vast majority of people shouldn’t drink and the government should ensure that they don’t. > > Problem is, most citizens don’t agree with that judgment. Same goes for personal ownership of guns in the US. Most Americans don’t actually give a flying fuck what other countries do or don’t do. I don’t really care, personally, what Europeans do or don’t do, or what Japanese do or don’t do…that’s their business. If I wanted to live in their society I’d move to their country and accept their own collective decisions on the various stuff that will or won’t kill their citizens. My WAG is they don’t care if Americans think there are things they do that they shouldn’t either, nor do they want to move here…or if they do, they probably are already trying to become Americans so they can live the dream. 😛 Its actually worse than that because crucible is saying that people with a couple of guns are OK but people like you with 9 guns are crazy cowards because that’s more than he thinks you need. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/571 "2017-10-12T17:33:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Not always the case but in begbert’s case yes. Begbert made several conclusory statements with apparent confidence while admitting that he had no fucking clue whether the assumption underlying his conclusions had any connection with reality. And, obviously, I am also unable to learn when informed of my mistake. Please do keep beating that horse. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/572 "2017-10-12T17:37:10Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There are way too many people with more than 20 guns to watch them all closely. What you call common sense looks quite silly to me. There are now. But public policy is meant to incentivize and deincentivize certain behaviors while some desired change occurs in the society. Do gun owners know what public policy is for? Sounds like they just want to make excuses for why we can never do anything at all. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/573 "2017-10-12T17:43:13Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Well - that’s my point. Is having a pool more dangerous than having a gun in the house? The available evidence seems to suggest that having a gun in the house increases the risk of any person in the home dying from a homicide compared to homes without guns. What evidence? I know there is a study that says that there is a correlation between gun ownership and someone in the house getting murdered 9not necessarily by the gun in the home. That same study also showed an even stronger correlation between renting your home and getting murdered. That same study showed a strong correlation between living alone and getting killed in your home. That same study showed a much stronger correlation between habitual drug use and getting killed in your home. Is renting my home, living alone and using drugs causing me to be murdered? Of course not. Isn’t it possible that people who have reason to fear being murdered might go out and buy a gun? And it turns out that their fears were not unjustified? > [@](#): > > Yet as I noted, I don’t recall ever being asked if I owned a gun in the home, either for my home insurance or life insurance. For my home insurance, I was asked about home security systems. Pools are a bigger risk factor for children. [http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2001/07/27/levittpoolsvsguns/](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2001/07/27/levittpoolsvsguns/) > [@](#): > > America clearly incurs costs to maintain its gun culture - both in terms of horrific body counts (killed and injured) plus additional healthcare costs and such - but it seems (to some of us at least) that gun owners do not pay their share to cover any of these costs. You are asking gun owners to pay for the criminal acts of others. I don’t know if an insurance requirement would be constitutional but I’m pretty sure that a punitive tax or a burdensome restriction on gun ownership (like the $1000/year insurance requirement) would be. > [@](#): > > Other than, you know, being far more likely to have you or one of your family members be killed by one of those guns. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/574 "2017-10-12T17:46:02Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Common sense tells me that anyone with more than 20 guns ought to be watched closely. I don’t know what the other items you listed have to do as an analog with it. Straw products? And it is this sort of “common sense” that generates resistance to licensing and registration schemes. If you are going to start keeping track of how many guns I own and apply extra scrutiny if I own more than you think I should own, then its going to be hard to get my support for schemes that allow you to keep track of how many guns I own. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/575 "2017-10-12T17:56:34Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Question for pro-gun folks: Do you have a problem with the government knowing what guns you have? Imagine a system akin to car registration. > > Might as well include question two: Thought on gun use licenses? Again, akin to driver’s licenses. (Ignore for the moment that these might be unconstitutional.) Well, both of those things are in my OP, so I’m ok with them…in theory. The devil would be in the details, but I think it could be worked out. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/576 "2017-10-12T18:09:37Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I don’t know how many crimes are committed by gun hoarders. I’d like to find out though. > > Gun ownership isn’t a natural right in the world outside of society. We are granting you that privilege. It isn’t from God. How could it be revoked if it were? OK now are we back on earth? And that is true with freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom from slavery? The right to keep and bear arms is currently viewed (in part) as an extension of the right to self defense. God made men [and women], Colonel Colt made them equal [at least in a sense]. I am going to make a wild guess that there is significant overlap between folks who have CCW licenses and law abiding citizens who have a shit ton of guns (I think we can both agree that criminals with a shit ton of guns are dangerous, but we already have laws that make it illegal for them to have guns). Now I am going to (from memory) state that CCWs in Texas have a lower rate of criminality than the police in Texas and certainly lower than the average citizen. So while I can’t state with absolute certainty, the guy who owns more guns than they can reasonably expect to need in their lifetime is less likely to engage in criminal conduct that the average American. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/577 "2017-10-12T18:18:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And it is this sort of “common sense” that generates resistance to licensing and registration schemes. > > If you are going to start keeping track of how many guns I own and apply extra scrutiny if I own more than you think I should own, then its going to be hard to get my support for schemes that allow you to keep track of how many guns I own. If you don’t have a number of guns that you feel is more than enough, you won’t be on board with any limits, whether its 2 or 2000. Your support is not necessary for society to make laws expressing it’s values. But let me ask you: what is your objection to anyone knowing how many guns you own? What difference does it make, other than animosity towards someone who wants to know? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/578 "2017-10-12T18:22:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And that is true with freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom from slavery? > > The right to keep and bear arms is currently viewed (in part) as an extension of the right to self defense. God made men [and women], Colonel Colt made them equal [at least in a sense]. > > I am going to make a wild guess that there is significant overlap between folks who have CCW licenses and law abiding citizens who have a shit ton of guns (I think we can both agree that criminals with a shit ton of guns are dangerous, but we already have laws that make it illegal for them to have guns). Now I am going to (from memory) state that CCWs in Texas have a lower rate of criminality than the police in Texas and certainly lower than the average citizen. So while I can’t state with absolute certainty, the guy who owns more guns than they can reasonably expect to need in their lifetime is less likely to engage in criminal conduct that the average American. Speech, liberty, religion are about privacy and not violence. Society has already told you that it is going to act on your, and your childrens, behalf regarding public safety and perils. It’s a settled issue now. If you don’t like that there are other countries. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/579 "2017-10-12T18:25:04Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > But let me ask you: what is your objection to anyone knowing how many guns you own? What difference does it make, other than animosity towards someone who wants to know? Based on my read of him he’s more concerned about _your_ animosity towards _him_ (and his huge arsenal). Gun collectors just want to be loved. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/580 "2017-10-12T18:25:25Z")
I’ve seen a range of estimates on the number of guns in the US. I don’t recall seeing an estimate as high as 400 million. [This article](http://www.npr.org/2016/01/05/462017461/guns-in-america-by-the-numbers) cites the Congressional Research Service and puts the number of guns at over 300 million. I got my number from a [survey conducted last year](https://news.northeastern.edu/2016/09/study-70m-more-firearms-added-to-us-gun-stock-over-past-20-years/#_ga=2.246916548.1324193881.1507824227-57532767.1507824227) by Harvard and Northeastern University. We can use any number you want - 300 million, 400 million whatever - because possibly the more relevant number for our purposes here isn’t the number of guns, it’s the number of people with guns. It’s clear most gun owners own more than one gun. The survey noted above puts the average number of firearms owned by a gun owner at five. This [report](http://www.norc.org/PDFs/GSS%20Reports/GSS_Trends%20in%20Gun%20Ownership_US_1972-2014.pdf) (warning: PDF) from the NORC General Social Survey puts the percentage of households with a gun at 31% as of 2014, with the percentage of adults in households with a gun at 32.4%. This is lower than the 39% from the Gallup Poll I posted. I have no idea which number is most ‘accurate’. The overall trend is a clear decline; even the Gallup Poll shows a clear decline the last couple of years, so I’d be surprised if the NORC number went up since 2014. The Harvard-Northeastern survey looks fairly comprehensive. I guess an average of the Gallup Poll and the Harvard-Northeastern survey would put the percentage of households with a gun at around 35%. Of course, that’s not the same thing as saying that 35% of _people_ in the US own a gun. That’s 35% of _households_. According to 2010 Census data, there were 116.7 million households in the US, with an average of 2.6 people per household. 35% of 116.7 million = 40.8 million households. 40.8 million households X 2.6 people = 106.1 million people. However, that number includes children. If we assume that the 2.6 people per home includes one child, we get 40.8 million \* 1.6 = 65.3 million adults. Based on the average noted above of ‘five guns per gun owner’ that would put the total number of guns at just under 330 million. Which is a reasonably good fit with the numbers noted above. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873.md?page=30)