# Gun control wouldn't have stopped what happened in Vegas...should we do it anyway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873 "2017-10-03T15:32:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/41 "2017-10-03T18:51:46Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > A handgun, or a hunting rifle or a target rifle or a shotgun have many legitimate uses. They can be abused and people can die. yes. The numbers though are pretty low. I’m pretty sure the overwhelming majority of gun deaths in the United States involve a handgun. So I don’t know what you mean by “pretty low.” ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/42 "2017-10-03T19:04:19Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Stop allowing them to be sold - and stop allowing _bullets_ to be sold. > And illegalize public display of guns, criminalizing it as threatening. > > As the bullets run out and people can no longer show off their weapons, they’ll slowly seep out of the public consiousness. > > This is the long game - we’re talking, a generation or two. But it has the upside of standing clear of violent response. It’s not too hard to make your own bullets. Unless you outlaw lead or fireworks, those people who want bullets are going to have them. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/43 "2017-10-03T19:07:50Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > It’s not too hard to make your own bullets. Unless you outlaw lead or fireworks, those people who want bullets are going to have them. Had a friend into reloading. He’d spend hours in his basement, along with thousands of dollars of tools, and come out with a couple hundred rounds. If everyone has to make their own ammo, it’ll reduce the ammo out there by orders of magnitude. ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/44 "2017-10-03T19:24:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Had a friend into reloading. He’d spend hours in his basement, along with thousands of dollars of tools, and come out with a couple hundred rounds. > > If everyone has to make their own ammo, it’ll reduce the ammo out there by orders of magnitude. I happen to agree that it will probably be more effective to regulate ammunition than firearms, but… There are many, many reloaders out there. Shooters buy them, get disillusioned about how cheap/easy it is to reload, and then stick them in their basements or attics. And a rotary unit can turn out hundreds of rounds an hour, once you get them set up correctly. Now, regulating the manufacture of propellants (modern gunpowder) might be an approach. You can cast your own bullets, clean and trim your brass, and do just about everything else at home. Making a modern smokeless propellant is pretty hard. (Why do I have visions of Walter White in an old RV manufacturing propellants out in the desert?) ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/45 "2017-10-03T20:05:41Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Stop allowing them to be sold - and stop allowing _bullets_ to be sold. > And illegalize public display of guns, criminalizing it as threatening. > > As the bullets run out and people can no longer show off their weapons, they’ll slowly seep out of the public consiousness. > > This is the long game - we’re talking, a generation or two. But it has the upside of standing clear of violent response. It would be trivially easy to smuggle huge amounts of bullets into this country. As long as there is a demand there will be enough bullets to supply that demand. ---
**Author:** ![Settimo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Settimo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Settimo)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/46 "2017-10-03T20:33:40Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I look at gun control not as a means of limiting an individual behavior per se, but mainly as an important first step in pushing back on gun culture and the antisocial attitudes that track with this culture. > > When tobacco was unregulated, it’s not a coincidence that more people smoked. By having a hands-off stance, the government sent the tacit message that tobacco products weren’t harmful enough to warrant constraining and that people’s freedom to do what they want overrode any public health and safety concerns. Couple this with media portrayals of smoking as cool and sexy and you had the makings of a culture that didn’t just permit tobacco abuse, but encouraged it. Even when it affected non-smokers through second-hand inhalation, social mores made it taboo for non-smokers to do anything about it. It took regulation to facilitate a cultural shift so that, for example, non-smoking areas could become the default, rather than the exception. It took regulation to get people to see smoking as not only an unnecessary expense, but also a major health hazard. Smokers also bear a stigma they used to not have, due to anti-smoking messaging sponsored by the government. Tobacco abuse is on the decline because of that, and along with that, the health conditions associated with smoking. This. I think there is a lot of important signalling over guns that is not happening, and that it’s possible to encourage a more self-disciplined (well regulated?) culture around gun use than anything we have today. There’s a lot of complex signalling between the authorities, the public, the culture, politicians, special interest groups, and it’s become too divided and ineffectual, and as a result too permissive. Look at the mass shooting: what signalling is occurring after this event? The same “hands off” stance only enables more of these acts in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/47 "2017-10-03T20:33:49Z")
> [@XT](#): > > None of these measures are going to fix the basic issue. All of them are going to make gun ownership more difficult. Some of them are going to make it difficult for poorer people to have guns (legally). They all have pros and cons, and all will be fought by one side and decried by the other as not going far enough. What others can you think of? I think that gun control is not the answer. Never has been, never will be. But that doesn’t stop libs from squawking it like parrots on crack. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/48 "2017-10-03T20:36:34Z")
Making bullets is harder than buying them. Buying bullets from smugglers is harder than buying them from regular stores. Even presuming we do nothing more than take the bullets off the shelves, there will be a _massive_ reduction in the number of bullets in the wild after a relatively short while. Casual crooks won’t be rolling their own, and if they buy from smugglers they will draw a lot of attention from law enforcement as soon as they fire a shot - they suddenly become a lead in a smuggling investigation, and if there’s one kind of smuggler a cop will care about, it’s ones supplying weapons to shoot them with. Private non-crazy individuals are extremely unlikely to go the smuggling route, and only real affectionados will roll their own. Crazy individuals of course have trillions of bullets. Nothing to be done about them via _any_ approach. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/49 "2017-10-03T20:38:27Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I think that gun control is not the answer. Never has been, never will be. But that doesn’t stop libs from squawking it like parrots on crack. What’s the answer? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/50 "2017-10-03T20:40:46Z")
> [@ZonexandScout](#): > > I’m as saddened and frustrated as everyone else, but I’m at a loss to make practical suggestions that would prevent this type of event. Charging cable and tv news agencies with accessory to murder, they get to report news, but to go to such orgasmic levels of coverage gives perps a huge platform during and after the fact. If it bleeds it leads, is unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/51 "2017-10-03T20:57:19Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I’m pretty sure the overwhelming majority of gun deaths in the United States involve a handgun. So I don’t know what you mean by “pretty low.” The number of people that can be killed with a handgun are pretty low compared to a military assault weapon ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/52 "2017-10-03T20:59:24Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Out of sheer curiosity, what ‘legitimate’ use does a handgun have? Several varieties of sport and target shooting, home defense, personal defense, hunting. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/53 "2017-10-03T21:01:51Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This is where people will ask you what an “Assault weapon” is. After you answer, they will ask you to point out the difference between what you describe as an assault weapon and a hunting rifle. So, be prepared for that. Auto or semi auto rifle is a good enough definition in my book. Semi auto shotguns are also part of the definition. Handguns are not assault weapons, imo. Ymmv ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/54 "2017-10-03T21:11:19Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Several varieties of sport and target shooting, home defense, personal defense, hunting. You hunt with _handguns_? Piffle. Also guns are crap for home and personal defense. I’m willing to sacrifice sport and target shooting for the good of humanity. You want to shoot for fun? Buy a hunting rifle. A big, non-concealable, not-often-used-by-criminals hunting rifle. Seriously, there are two kinds of guns - the ones meant for shooting people, and the ones meant for shooting animals. I, as a craven liberal, see real reason to keep the guns meant for shooting animals around, and would be okay with keeping them in the hands of people. But handguns and military hardware? Ban the lot of them. ETA: I don’t think the government’s first move should be banning them - I think that the government should move very carefully regarding disarming the populace. But seriously, there is _no good reason_ for civilians to own weapons designed for killing people. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/55 "2017-10-03T21:11:24Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Even though it’s events like Vegas that get the news and get people riled up, gun control isn’t going to have any effect on something like that. Not _any_ effect? I think that stricter regulations can have _some_ effect. It sounds like you’re limiting the options to regulations that we already have, and pointing out that these regulations didn’t stop this tragedy, therefore no regulations can. I think there are ways we could really cut back on the number of people with weapons like the Vegas shooter had, and that will reduce the number of these kinds of tragedies. Others have already mentioned liability insurance, which I hadn’t heard before but sounds like a good idea. We can also outlaw the kinds of guns that are fully automatic, or can be practically modified to be automatic or near-automatic (like the stock-bump thing), and put in place severe penalties for anyone caught with them. More limits on magazine capacity. And what is that perforated sleeve around the barrel of the gun that guy was using? Is that for cooling the barrel? Let’s outlaw those for civilian use, you don’t need that for protecting your house or hunting. I’m sure there are lots of things I haven’t thought of. Let’s not fall for the slippery-slope fallacy and do nothing this time. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/56 "2017-10-03T21:21:26Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Not any effect? I think that stricter regulations can have some effect. It sounds like you’re limiting the options to regulations that we already have, and pointing out that these regulations didn’t stop this tragedy, therefore no regulations can. Walk me through it then. What regulation would you put in that would have avoided what happened in Vegas? The guy bought the gun he used legally, going through the FBI background check and meeting all of the local and state regulations. So, what would have prevented this? AFAIK, the guy didn’t have a history of mental issues, didn’t have any sort of criminal record, so unless you propose a total ban on guns (or maybe on semi-automatic rifles) and a time machine I don’t see how anything that is possible to do in the US today that would have prevented this. But perhaps it’s a lack of imagination on my part, so like I said, walk me through it. > [@](#): > > I think there are ways we could really cut back on the number of people with weapons like the Vegas shooter had, and that will reduce the number of these kinds of tragedies. Others have already mentioned liability insurance, which I hadn’t heard before but sounds like a good idea. We can also outlaw the kinds of guns that are fully automatic, or can be practically modified to be automatic or near-automatic (like the stock-bump thing), and put in place severe penalties for anyone caught with them. More limits on magazine capacity. And what is that perforated sleeve around the barrel of the gun that guy was using? Is that for cooling the barrel? Let’s outlaw those for civilian use, you don’t need that for protecting your house or hunting. How would any of this prevented what happened though? 😕 Sure, if we had time travel to know which people to cut back guns of this kind too we could do that. But this guy seems pretty bog standard and almost certainly would have gotten a gun regardless, unless we ban them all from everyone. Liability insurance? You think this guy, who had over 10 rifles and rented a suite in Las Vegas (it certainly looks expensive to me) is going to have some sort of issue with paying for or getting insurance? I read on CNN that he wired $100k to the Philipines last week (gods know why). So, sure, after the fact he’d have trouble getting insurance, but last week? :dubious: As for the modifications, afaik modifying such a gun to fire full auto is already illegal, and owning an automatic is highly restricted. So, he did something illegal, but, sadly, wasn’t caught before it mattered. I don’t know how or who modified the gun for him to do that…for all I know he did. He seems to have been a pretty secretive guy who kept a lot of things secret from those around him. Hell, he also had homemade explosives in his car, I suppose as a backup and managed to get all of that into Las Vegas. All of this, and I’ve yet to see anyone with even a theory on why this guy did what he did. We dont’ even have a freaking note from him, nothing on the internet…just nada. > [@](#): > > I’m sure there are lots of things I haven’t thought of. Let’s not fall for the slippery-slope fallacy and do nothing this time. _sigh_ What’s with people today? Did you read the REST of the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/57 "2017-10-03T21:22:20Z")
I don’t understand the premise. The fact that the guns were all bought legally means that gun control _would_ have worked here, not that it wouldn’t. The current state of gun laws allows this sort of thing to happen, so maybe we should change the gun laws so they don’t allow it. If this shooter had had the same goals, but had been in any other First World nation, he wouldn’t have been able to do this. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/58 "2017-10-03T21:31:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t understand the premise. The fact that the guns were all bought legally means that gun control _would_ have worked here, not that it wouldn’t. The current state of gun laws allows this sort of thing to happen, so maybe we should change the gun laws so they don’t allow it. If this shooter had had the same goals, but had been in any other First World nation, he wouldn’t have been able to do this. Again, walk me through it. What gun control measures do you propose that would have stopped this. They did a background check through the FBI, so obviously that one isn’t going to work. What other checks to do see that would have worked? As for the last part, do you consider [Norway](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks) a 1st world country? What about [France](http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/13/world/paris-shooting/index.html)? There isn’t any sort of silver bullet from these kinds of random attacks, AFAIK, and gun control isn’t going to stop them. Myself, I think we should focus on the day to day violence and just accept that these sorts of terrorist type attacks are going to happen. Isn’t that what many on this board say about 9/11? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/59 "2017-10-03T21:47:38Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Again, walk me through it. What gun control measures do you propose that would have stopped this. They did a background check through the FBI, so obviously that one isn’t going to work. What other checks to do see that would have worked? I can’t speak for **Chronos** , but I think his point is that this dude didn’t break the law to get the guns, so he would be subject to the interference of law in a way that, say, a secret agent airdropped in from russia with his arsenal of weapons already strapped to his back wouldn’t be. So, for an example, if he had been completely forbidden from buying the weapons to start with, he would have been forced to resort to rubber bands to do his shooting spree with, which have a 30% lower fatality rate. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873/60 "2017-10-03T21:48:48Z")
From what I understand, _less_ gun control would also have not stopped this from occurring. A lone gunmen at height above a crowd of people cannot be stopped by someone in the crowd also having a gun unless it was a sniper rifle (highly unlikely someone goes to a concert with one). There is absolutely no way to prevent this besides simply criminalizing all deadly weapon ownership or having Big Brother watch absolutely everyone and be ready to step in when someone is about to go off. Neither of those are really feasible. This incident may have been designed by the perpetrator specifically to show the futility of any gun control _or_ widespread carrying of guns by civilians that might be put in place to stop mass shootings. They will occur. And we’ll have to deal with them the same way we deal with earthquakes and hurricanes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gun-control-wouldnt-have-stopped-what-happened-in-vegas-should-we-do-it-anyway/797873.md?page=4)